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Who will swap for the new 7.3 V8!

Erik427

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So exactly what design aspect of the Coyote was incorporated for use in FWD vehicles?
Bore spacing was kept compact to allow for a east to west traditional installation.
Typical of FWD cars to this very day.
This is a design trait carried of from the Coyote's Mod Motor
dna.
 
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Fatguy

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Bore spacing was kept compact to allow for a east to west traditional installation.
Typical of FWD cars to this very day.
This is a design trait carried of from the Coyote's Mod Motor
dna.

I had to dig around to see what you were talking about when you kept talking about the front wheel drive Coyote motor. The problem with the Wikipedia world is sometimes things get left out. But it sure looks like you know your stuff!


The modular engine was used in the front wheel drive Lincoln back in the day and the original design was dictated by front wheel drive use which ended up with the limitations on expanding engine size - if I got that right.


So this is a limitation that would require a larger new block for much more displacement. Now I get it! You learn something new every day.



Thanks!
 
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engineermike

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.... the new ones will be faster and produce more power than the old ones. Because they are new with all the technological improvements. ...
You mean like 4v, DOHC, TiVCT, IMRC, and GDI?
 

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engineermike

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...
Australian Super Cars use pushrod in the Ford Mustang.
Nascar used pushrods in the Ford Mustang.
Top Fuel Funny Car uses pushrods in the Ford Mustang.....
All mandated by the rule book. DOHC and 4v will make more power, all else being equal.
 

Hack

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And still false after all these years. I can't even imagine thinking so simplistically.
Agreed that there are definitely replacements for displacement, but as you continue to push and stretch power output more and more, costs and maintenance increase much faster than power does. I'm not advocating for huge displacement engines, but I am advocating for an increase in displacement - maybe 20% increase to 6 liters rather than 5 - so that the engine doesn't have to push limits quite so much in order to achieve performance goals. The overall size and weight of the Coyote would not increase by that much if it was 6 liters vs. 5. However, the complexity and cost could be reduced. Get rid of direct injection, for one.

A large cube Mustang sounds very nice.

Here's what to expect for the 4th gen Coyote.
Mono port exhaust like the 2.3 found in the Stang.
Possible Hot V Twin Turbo.
Displacement on demand.......you think the cams are complicated now?
This motor will be so complex the aftermarket will run from it.
Just look at the new Caddy 4.2 and tell me that this is what you want to call progress.
Agreed. It wouldn't even have to be "large" cubes. Just some more cubes and/or cut some fat off the Mustang itself. If the next generation Mustang weighed closer to 3500 lbs and had a 6 liter port injection engine making 550 hp or so it would be awesome. Especially if it had a transaxle. Save some money on the engine design and development by increasing the displacement and use that money to create a transaxle for better balance and performance.

A Mustang like that could be a world beater. Still relatively inexpensive but amazing to drive.
 

engineermike

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Coyote is stuck in the mid '80's with the idea that everything would be FWD.
Bore spacing was kept compact to allow for a east to west traditional installation.
Typical of FWD cars to this very day.
This is a design trait carried of from the Coyote's Mod Motor
dna.
While I agree that the mod motor bore spacing is smaller than most v8's, even by small-block standards, I'm not completely convinced it was done that way for FWD packaging reasons (though it's possible). I could be convinced it was done that way to save space and weight, and the trend at the time was smaller engines. However, I would also like to note that if displacement was the Achilles heel of the mod motor, then why don't we see more versions of the 5.8 liter mod motor? It's, well, 5.8 liters and was used in only one car (660 hp). Then, for 2020 the 7-800 hp GT500 is going back to a smaller 5.2 liter engine and making power somewhere between the Hellcat and the Demon. Apparently, Ford didn't get the memo that the mod motor is inherently limited by its displacement.
 

Erik427

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I had to dig around to see what you were talking about when you kept talking about the front wheel drive Coyote motor. The problem with the Wikipedia world is sometimes things get left out. But it sure looks like you know your stuff!


The modular engine was used in the front wheel drive Lincoln back in the day and the original design was dictated by front wheel drive use which ended up with the limitations on expanding engine size - if I got that right.


So this is a limitation that would require a larger new block for much more displacement. Now I get it! You learn something new every day.



Thanks!
You're welcome.
 

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engineermike

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...So this is a limitation that would require a larger new block for much more displacement.
As previously stated, the mod motor went up to 5.8 liters in v8 form. However, apparently Ford didn't see the need to use the 5.8 liter version very many places. If you can achieve your power and torque goals using 5.0 - 5.2 liters, why bother?
 
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Fatguy

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You mean like 4v, DOHC, TiVCT, IMRC, and GDI?

By the way, lest anyone think I consider engineermike some mortal enemy - nope!


A couple of things. If you go back to last Friday you will see I didn’t necessarily ascribe to rationality and logic exclusively. In fact with AI I see errors as a necessary part of it (also why I think quantum computing and Qubits is where it’s at) and not a problem, but I digress. Contradictions? Who cares as I am going to contradict myself again and speak of the elephant in the room.


The easiest thing for me to have done was to simply buy a GT and have a V8 as I always have. The path of least resistance. And I tried it in the last days of the 2017 model year and lucked out on a black GT. Members here on this very board (who bought the car) told me not to buy the 2018 GT due to problems with the engine and it so happens they were right. Even if the percentage is low I just do not trust the new motor anymore. Certainly the longevity of this block is in question and these blocks can not be remachined or rebored and it is not all about bore spacing but also other problems with that block. I’d mention them off the top of my head from this technical journal I read but I don’t want those statements picked apart. The long and short of it is that the 3rd generation Coyote motor has a disposable block and they designed it that way. Not for me!


So along comes the 7.3 which just about answers every deficit I found with the Coyote. Sure it’s not perfect but not deal breakers - at this time. So is it any wonder why I find the swap compelling?
 

CurtisH

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While I agree that the mod motor bore spacing is smaller than most v8's, even by small-block standards, I'm not completely convinced it was done that way for FWD packaging reasons (though it's possible). I could be convinced it was done that way to save space and weight, and the trend at the time was smaller engines. However, I would also like to note that if displacement was the Achilles heel of the mod motor, then why don't we see more versions of the 5.8 liter mod motor? It's, well, 5.8 liters and was used in only one car (660 hp). Then, for 2020 the 7-800 hp GT500 is going back to a smaller 5.2 liter engine and making power somewhere between the Hellcat and the Demon. Apparently, Ford didn't get the memo that the mod motor is inherently limited by its displacement.
At the time, it was believed that controlling emissions became much more difficult with larger bores. I don’t remember the sweet spot, but it was somewhere around 3.7 inches. This also played a part in the design of the mod motors. Of course, technology advances and that limit was overcome.

Disclaimer: This is from memory, so take it with a grain of salt.
 

tw557

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I have to agree with Hack that I am concerned Ford is really stretching it component and design limits because they are holding strong at only being 5.0 size. As a mechanical engineer and machine designer, I have learned over the years to keep it as simple as possible to get the job done. Even though sometimes its easier to design a complex complicated Rube Goldberg design. It was really just recently when I started looking into the coyote design and at first marveling in what power was made from such a small size. But then I looked into it and realized that by sticking to the small displacement but looking to squeeze out every last drop of power with out FI they go with the OHC design. But then notice that a simple 6.2 motor weighs less, smaller size and much less complexity. So to me the simpler design becomes appealing. I'm still not so sure some of all the noises coming from the Coyotes are from all the cams and chains and VVT. But maybe the coyote is more fuel efficient and emissions and that was a design driver.

I'll admit I can only imagine all the design criteria that is discussed. Emissions, existing tooling, magazine max HP numbers, forum emotions. It should be a simple logical solution. Put a V6 twin turbo in the mustang and blow everything away. But that's not what customers want. Look at the backlash over the Rapter and even the GT supercar. Sure not an easy answer but I do feel simpler would be better and the current coyote 5.0 is really pushing its limits because the displacement is being held at 5.0.
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