Whipple Stage 2 Engine failure (2017)

[J17GT]

I think it's the same. Could only find official specs for the N/A aluminator which is 0.18mm - 0.28mm (0.007" - 0.011")

https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/IS_M-6007-A50NAB_100121.PDF

Thanks for that. I'll try to do some googling for the lower 9.5 compression aluminator to see if there is any difference.

Sponsored

 

[mike3105]

If your going to run another stock shortblock hard on pump gas, you are likely to end up in the same situation you are now. Stock ring gaps with prolonged full throttle pulls on pumpgas is problematic in these cars.

I’ll get a precise cost on it. They said it’d be a big job as the block is arriving with pistons in etc., but with everything I’ve read I think doing that would get me much closer to ticking the “have confidence in the car” box.

I have rebuilt 2 engines and I guess ill chime in.

My guess would be detonation from the car going lean causing the piston to melt. The weird thing is that if I am looking at the picture correctly that would be your #7 piston which means the heat spot is next to the intake valves not the exhaust. Which is weird because I would think the intake valve wouldn't be super hot but maybe I am wrong. There could also be some carbon buildup on it which got hot enough to cause detonation.

Also if you are going to have a boosted car just gap the rings. Is the engine coming as a shortblock or longblock? If its coming as a shortblock it should only take a skilled tech an hour or so to pull the pistons and gap the top ring. If you like to track the car then it's going to be getting hot which means you are risking your piston rings.
Would you rather spend the money now or a new engine later?

Also, get some opg and cs while you are at it. Also ARP headstuds.

OPG and CS were done with the original install of the Whipple, I specifically asked to get a reliable setup so I could not worry about it.

That picture will be either 1 or 6 I think, as those were the two cylinders that had the issue.

I was originally told it was a short block (and the price is £3k ish which with extra UK costs is short block pricing)

I put 3 medical gloves ontop of my foster sound tube and zip tied them on just to make sure the thin film wouldnt break and suck extra air in from the cabin... I would probably not do this mod again although I havent had any problems caused by it so far for 2 years. Was there a hole in the thin film on the sound tube? That could cause it to go lean

With the car at the garage I don’t have easy access to check. I will check though, and when putting it back together I’m not sure if we’ll be keeping it.

 

[Cory S]

Another option would be just to put a Ford aluminator shortblock in the car and be on your way. That's the route I'll go if I ever end up in your situation. The aluminator will be fine unless you're really pushing big power.

Aluminator rings are also gapped at .009”.

 

[Cory S]

Anyone know what the ring gaps are on the aluminator compared to a stock short block?

.0085-.011”

 

[Cory S]

99/100 times, the common ring land failure is NOT from detonation. The knock strategy is VERY good on these Coyotes. Most ringland failures happen on gasoline well within acceptable spark advance windows.
When I say gasoline, I mean ANY gasoline. Pump, race gas etc.

 

[tdstuart]

99/100 times, the common ring land failure is NOT from detonation. The knock strategy is VERY good on these Coyotes. Most ringland failures happen on gasoline well within acceptable spark advance windows.
When I say gasoline, I mean ANY gasoline. Pump, race gas etc.

Piston looks melted, but not a great photo.

 

[tdstuart]

That picture will be either 1 or 6 I think, as those were the two cylinders that had the issue.

I was originally told it was a short block (and the price is £3k ish which with extra UK costs is short block pricing)

Will be #6 then you can tell by the piston direction and head gasket orientation.

And if it’s a shortblock they just have to take off the oil pan and pull the pistons out. It should take an hour or 2 for a good tech.

 

[Andy13186]

Is there a certain CHT where the rings get too expanded? I've hit 258 cht during some somewhat prolonged spirited driving in 95 degree weather with my boosted NA aluminator, no problems yet although I don't want to test it farther than around that temp. I'm on e50 so maybe that helps the cylinder temps? idk. Also are the aluminator pistons less prone to this breakage because they are forged?

OP do you know what your CHT's were?

I'm going to stay under 260 since I've hit that without problems on my setup/fuel. In the winter this should be easy I hope.

 

[ice445]

Is there a certain CHT where the rings get too expanded? I've hit 258 cht during some somewhat prolonged spirited driving in 95 degree weather with my boosted NA aluminator, no problems yet although I don't want to test it farther than around that temp. I'm on e50 so maybe that helps the cylinder temps? idk. Also are the aluminator pistons less prone to this breakage because they are forged?

OP do you know what your CHT's were?

I'm going to stay under 260 since I've hit that without problems on my setup/fuel. In the winter this should be easy I hope.

Whoa mama, lol. 258 is pushing it. Engine power derates substantially on stock cars at 240, and that's as high as o would personally allow it to get to.

Pushing close to 260 is just asking for damage.

 

[Cory S]

Is there a certain CHT where the rings get too expanded? I've hit 258 cht during some somewhat prolonged spirited driving in 95 degree weather with my boosted NA aluminator, no problems yet although I don't want to test it farther than around that temp. I'm on e50 so maybe that helps the cylinder temps? idk. Also are the aluminator pistons less prone to this breakage because they are forged?

OP do you know what your CHT's were?

I'm going to stay under 260 since I've hit that without problems on my setup/fuel. In the winter this should be easy I hope.

The combination of E50 and a stronger piston, absolutely provide a higher/longer resistance to piston ringland failure. The N/A Aluminators still run very tight ring gaps. (.009-.012”)

 

[tdstuart]

Is there a certain CHT where the rings get too expanded? I've hit 258 cht during some somewhat prolonged spirited driving in 95 degree weather with my boosted NA aluminator, no problems yet although I don't want to test it farther than around that temp. I'm on e50 so maybe that helps the cylinder temps? idk. Also are the aluminator pistons less prone to this breakage because they are forged?

OP do you know what your CHT's were?

I'm going to stay under 260 since I've hit that without problems on my setup/fuel. In the winter this should be easy I hope.

258 CHT are too high imo. If you want to run these cars hard and hot then upgrade the cooling system. Performance Pack radiator + Upgraded water pump + 170* Reiche Thermostat is the move.

I don't even have the upgraded water pump and I can go 180mph (I'm n/a) and not get past about 225 CHT. And that's in the heat (95+ F). I think I've done pulls to 160 in about the 90-100 temp range and not gone over 210 CHT. Granted the car was not super hot when doing this but those upgrades will let you push the car really hard. Keep in mind CHT are not ring temps and at least for my car the CHT are actually just calculated off the coolant temp in the cylinder head.

 

[ice445]

258 CHT are too high imo. If you want to run these cars hard and hot then upgrade the cooling system. Performance Pack radiator + Upgraded water pump + 170* Reiche Thermostat is the move.

I don't even have the upgraded water pump and I can go 180mph (I'm n/a) and not get past about 225 CHT. And that's in the heat (95+ F). I think I've done pulls to 160 in about the 90-100 temp range and not gone over 210 CHT. Granted the car was not super hot when doing this but those upgrades will let you push the car really hard. Keep in mind CHT are not ring temps and at least for my car the CHT are actually just calculated off the coolant temp in the cylinder head.

It's reversed, the cht is a physical sensor in the head that measures the temperature of the aluminum. Then the car calculates coolant temp based on that

 

[mike3105]

OP do you know what your CHT's were?

I don't, although this was at the end of the second lap (and it's a short one) so I'm not expecting it to be too hot as it was <20 celsius. When I get the car back I'll check the footage from the cam and see if I can spot anything.

 

[tdstuart]

It's reversed, the cht is a physical sensor in the head that measures the temperature of the aluminum. Then the car calculates coolant temp based on that

Thanks for the correction got them reversed lmao.

Sponsored