Sponsored

Where to sleeve?! Or sleeved block for sale?

OP
OP

Turbovenom

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2021
Threads
5
Messages
20
Reaction score
5
Location
ARIZONA
Vehicle(s)
11gt turbocobra powerstroke
Any other pros cons? I assume it would save me from paying for decking or line hone on my block but then again I assume my block sleeved would be stronger, however sound like the 5.2 will be strong enough so that doesn't really matter and the extra displacement isn't much but every bit counts
Sponsored

 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
3,567
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
I honestly believe the oem machining tolerances and qc is much better than pretty much anything aftermarket. If you choose to learn how the oem mains are measured and the bearing selection process, your mind will be blown. The block and crank are measured to the .00004” accuracy and stamped with the size. I measured the bores and they were much more accurate and repeatable than anything I’ve measured from local machine shops.
 

silverbullet85

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
543
Reaction score
268
Location
San Diego
Vehicle(s)
2019 Gt
I honestly believe the oem machining tolerances and qc is much better than pretty much anything aftermarket. If you choose to learn how the oem mains are measured and the bearing selection process, your mind will be blown. The block and crank are measured to the .00004” accuracy and stamped with the size. I measured the bores and they were much more accurate and repeatable than anything I’ve measured from local machine shops.
If ford spent the hours and time measuring and double checking tolerances that (good) engine building shops do then the cars would cost a good deal more. Imo a engine built by a good shop would be way more balanced and better built then an assembly line built engine.
 

Grimreaper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Threads
14
Messages
587
Reaction score
283
Location
Dallas
Vehicle(s)
2017 GT
Are new blocks good to start installing parts? Or any cleanup or finishing needed? Or common area that needs attention before being assembled.
 

silverbullet85

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
543
Reaction score
268
Location
San Diego
Vehicle(s)
2019 Gt
I would call wherever you're buying the block from
 

Sponsored

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
3,567
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
If ford spent the hours and time measuring and double checking tolerances that (good) engine building shops do then the cars would cost a good deal more. Imo a engine built by a good shop would be way more balanced and better built then an assembly line built engine.
I agree that local shops spend way more time machining and measuring but I believe Ford still does it more accurately due to the equipment involved. Just take your typical machinist's mic or dial bore gauge, which has .0001 accuracy at best, and compare to the .00004 that Ford is systemically stamping on every block and crank. I tend to believe Ford is measuring using automated optical or laser measuring methods. Aftermarket bearings are only offered in 1 thickness, but Ford installs 5 different combinations to keep the clearance in an extremely small range. Ford also dimensionally checks way more measurements than a local machine shop. I think the days of boring a new block just to improve the accuracy of the machine work are over.
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
3,567
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
Are new blocks good to start installing parts? Or any cleanup or finishing needed? Or common area that needs attention before being assembled.
I took some dimensions off of mine to verify a few things, just for the heck of it. Otherwise just clean and assemble. Keep in mind that the more you do to it, the more fault potential you introduce. For instance, the pistons sit below the deck by .015 IIRC. I would like to have built mine to zero deck to increase compression and reduce quench. However, there is small chamfer at the top of the PTWA, presumably to aid in ring entry during assembly. If you zero-deck it then you have to cut the chamfer into the PTWA lining, and then you have to ensure all the metal shavings have been removed. Just one remaining metal chip can trash an engine. Is the risk worth the gain?
 

80FoxCoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Threads
47
Messages
4,388
Reaction score
4,337
Location
Cincy, OH
Vehicle(s)
16 GT, 80 Fox
The predator block has a larger bore than coyote. The only problem this presents is the piston diameter itself. I verified the gen3 head gasket bore is larger than the predator bore. I suspect any voodoo piston would work fine for a predator block high compression coyote application.
When using a coyote crank in a 5.2, you want to run a 3.700 bore coyote piston. The voodoo piston has a shorter compression height vs coyote, to compensate for the longer stroke of the 5.2 crank.

There are white papers out there that note the rapid increase of friction in the cylinder with PWTA liners. This is by design to rapidly get the cylinder and rings to temp for emissions purposes. Yes the PWTA design is used in gt500 and Nissan GTR applications, but keep in mind that design is based on the stock configuration. Sure both hold plenty more power, but if one is designing for 1000hp Def consider sleeves.

Iron sleeves will provide a more thermally stable cylinder which will reduce hot and high friction spots. A sleeved cylinder would to a certain extent will be less likely to distort under high cylinder pressures. A 1000hp engine will likely be rebuilt at some point, sleeves allow a hone or overbore, where PWTA cannot do either.

If running a PWTA block in a boosted application, I highly suggest having a shop measure the bores and order pistons accordingly. I planned to run a predator block unsleeved. My block only yielded .003 clearance. I'm 25plus psi so that's a no go. I had my predator block sleeved, bored/honed bore to achieve .005 and that's a wrap.
 

80FoxCoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Threads
47
Messages
4,388
Reaction score
4,337
Location
Cincy, OH
Vehicle(s)
16 GT, 80 Fox
Also if running a PWTA block with aftermarket pistons, I'd recommend asking builder about using 4032 pistons over 2618. 4032's high silicon content is more similar to an oem hypereutectic piston, vs the more malleable and higher expanding 2618. The cylinder in a PTWA block expands quickly and you want to make sure the piston selected supports that properly, and also keeps the designed piston clearance in line based on the boosted HP level as dictated by the piston manufacturer.
 
Last edited:

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,197
Reaction score
3,567
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
@80FoxCoupe the predator and voodoo run stock forged pistons on ptwa. My guess is 4032 is more like the oem material but that’s just a guess. Also worth noting is the stock forged pistons run as little as .001 clearance and .008 ring gap. The fact that they lived at 1400 crank hp at all kinda makes me rethink what I’ve read and been told my entire life.
 

Sponsored

80FoxCoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Threads
47
Messages
4,388
Reaction score
4,337
Location
Cincy, OH
Vehicle(s)
16 GT, 80 Fox
@80FoxCoupe the predator and voodoo run stock forged pistons on ptwa. My guess is 4032 is more like the oem material but that’s just a guess. Also worth noting is the stock forged pistons run as little as .001 clearance and .008 ring gap. The fact that they lived at 1400 crank hp at all kinda makes me rethink what I’ve read and been told my entire life.
With that close of clearance, it seems as if the cylinder expands more than the piston at operating temps. Meaning the .001 opens up to .003 as example.

I know you know this, I'm just elaborating for anyone reading that may not be as familiar.
 

tdstuart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Threads
57
Messages
1,627
Reaction score
758
Location
Arizona
First Name
Triston
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang Gt Premium
If your machine shops are talking about replacing one sleeve then they are talking about a simpler job that is done on engines with iron sleeves. Those are not meant for high hp.

If going local you need a machine shop who knows what they are talking about and has sleeved a coyote before. They need to have a good cnc machine to do the work.
Sponsored

 
 




Top