What's the point of staggered wheels?

[Vlad Soare]

Yeah, until then. Or until the sky falls. Whichever comes first.

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[Norm Peterson]

I will take fun over fast anytime.
You want fast? Buy a plane ticket.

There's only two places where I will ever intentionally do any 'throttle steering'. One of them is on a deserted, snow-covered parking lot.

The other place is here, at a wet track day. Listen carefully for variation in the amount of exhaust sound (it's there, just that my car's exhaust isn't very loud). There was just enough to dance the car back and forth between light understeer and very light oversteer. My instructor sitting right seat couldn't feel it, but it was like day to night to day for me.




Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I will take fun over fast anytime.
You want fast? Buy a plane ticket.

Fast under control is more fun than you're giving it credit for.

When I want fast, I go to places like this one.

Throttle steering here might have had me adding to the black marks on the pavement toward the end of this little clip. A staggered tire setup might well have had me running out of road on corner exit, considering that I was using almost all of the road as it was.




Norm

 

[luc]

It may be the fun way, but it's not the fast way.


Norm

Will disagree with that, we are not talking drifting or power oversteer but using the throttle for rotating the car earlier going through the apex. some more detailed explanation below

"Every time you change the direction of travel you do so by rotating the car around a point in the centre of the car. At the novice and intermediate level the only way you can rotate the car is to turn the steering wheel.

In order to avoid understeer the intermediate driver may need to limit his corner speed prior to the apex to allow for sufficient steering angle to hit the apex. Throttle steering is a technique that allows you to rotate the car in a corner, independent of the steering input, by releasing a small amount of pressure on the gas pedal. (This differs from “power oversteer” – a technique applicable to high horsepower cars – that induces oversteer by increasing pressure on the gas pedal). Throttle steering allows for faster cornering speeds and earlier acceleration coming out of the corner.

In high performance driver education, novice and intermediate drivers are instructed to make a smooth rotation of the steering wheel on corner entry and mild constant throttle from corner entry to the apex. As you progress beyond intermediate you learn to apply “maintenance throttle,” so that car does not decelerate at all between corner entry and apex. This means that your speed at the turn-in point is the same as your speed at the apex. The application of the throttle during corner entry is critical as throttle steering is not possible if you are “coasting” – meaning you›re neither on the brake nor the gas. This is a critical point as throttle steering requires that you maintain throttle input throughout corner entry. Throttle steering requires that your speed during corner entry generates G-forces sufficient for your tyres to be at or near their grip limit during corner entry. At slower corner entry speeds or less than optimum utilisation of the tyres, you will not be able to achieve controlled oversteer – the mechanism responsible for rotating the car when throttle steering – when you lift off the throttle. Since your corner entry speed has placed your tyres at or near their grip limit increasing steering angle in any of the above three situations will likely cause the car to understeer. Because your foot is now applying pressure to the gas pedal you have the capability to subtly and smoothly slightly decrease pressure on that pedal.

To achieve throttle steering without changing your steering angle you must feather the gas pedal prior to reaching the apex. Breathing off the gas pedal requires a quick, smooth, slight decrease in pedal pressure. This results in a small amount of forward weight transfer. This forward weight transfer causes the front wheels to “bite” and the associated decrease in weight on the rear wheels allows the rear wheels to “slide” resulting in subtle, controlled oversteer. The ensuing rotation points the nose of the car towards the apex. All this magically happens without turning the steering wheel.

Often the fastest way around the corner is where the corner entry speed is high enough to initiate light understeer where during this point you would lift off and rotate rear tyres losing grip a tad to get back to the apex, in order to get back on power as soon as possible. With modern day data/video loggers you can see some of the fast or pro drivers using this technique with the throttle meter going down or almost off in the middle of the turn, before going back to full power.

It is important to emphasise that throttle steering requires smooth and gentle manipulation of the gas pedal. Your initial attempts at throttle steering will likely result in no oversteer at all. As your confidence increases you will likely have too little or too much oversteer. With practice though, you will find the balance and be able to make subtle adjustments in your car’s direction that will allow you to negotiate and exit corners faster. As we all know, the faster you exit the corner, the faster you go down straight."

 

[luc]

but that is a MILE away from oversteer.

I think that there is some confusion between power oversteer and throttle steering

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think that there is some confusion between power oversteer and throttle steering

Perfectly clear here, particularly with your other explanation (quoted below for clarity). Though the difference is really just one of 'degree' and dependent on driver skill.

It is important to emphasize that throttle steering requires smooth and gentle manipulation of the gas pedal. Your initial attempts at throttle steering will likely result in no oversteer at all. As your confidence increases you will likely have too little or too much oversteer.

I'm reasonably aware of the physics involved, and I'd still prefer to take my throttle steering with a car that has a minimally understeerish nature as opposed to one with an oversteerish understeer budget. Basically, you're 'tricking' an understeerish car into behaving like it's oversteerish, with full-time control input being necessary to put it there and keep it there. It's not an inherently stable or self-limiting condition.

The oversteering car I mentioned earlier would flat-out not tolerate being given more throttle, and that was a FWD car so it's not like acceleration traction demands were messing with rear tire slip angles.


Norm

 

[Fastfwd]

When I bought my aftermarket wheels (SVE 19x10) to mount the stock summer tires for my PP1 I was thinking in terms of running a square setup one day so I could rotate them and hopefully benefit from any handling performance gains.

What exactly would I encounter if I actually did that (275 on all four corners)? I've got Magnaride with a PP1 is there anything calibrated specifically for the 255's up front that I would need to worry about?

I caught the world's tiniest screw in one of my front PS4s and I'm super bummed out about it being on the shoulder of the tire where it can't be fixed to retain the speed rating, etc.

So, I'm revisiting the possibility of going squared way sooner than I thought I might ever do it.

 

[TonyNJ]

When I bought my aftermarket wheels (SVE 19x10) to mount the stock summer tires for my PP1 I was thinking in terms of running a square setup one day so I could rotate them and hopefully benefit from any handling performance gains.

What exactly would I encounter if I actually did that (275 on all four corners)? I've got Magnaride with a PP1 is there anything calibrated specifically for the 255's up front that I would need to worry about?

I caught the world's tiniest screw in one of my front PS4s and I'm super bummed out about it being on the shoulder of the tire where it can't be fixed to retain the speed rating, etc.

So, I'm revisiting the possibility of going squared way sooner than I thought I might ever do it.

FastFwd, any update on this? I'm in the same boat wanting to square a PP1 magnaride.

 

[The Demon]

I would admit that I haven’t read the thread because honestly there’s only one reason for me. STANCE!!

 

[oneheadlite]

Yeah not really. Our cars tends to understear sona bigger front is what we do at the roadcourse events.
Also a squared setup allow you rotate wheels for better wearing.
Of course with same pffset (using hubcentric spacers)

A pp1 is not a track oriented car. That is whynisna perf package and not a track package.
Same for pp2. (Lots of overheating issues)
A track oriented car is the 350 and latest models came 305 squared i believe.
A squared set up requires some adjustment in the front especially for offset and camber.

A staggered car has some advantages for street
1. Easy plug and play after market wheel choices. (Usually 19x10 and 19x11)
2. Lower tire costs. (Some are smaller)
3. Having big tires in the rear helps you for drag racing (also smaller front =less rotational mass)

And that's it
Alex

....what????????????

 

[TonyNJ]

Just as the title reads. I'm hearing the racing guys prefer 275 squared. So why would Ford make their PP1 staggered? Base and PP2 are squared.

What did you end up going with?

 

[accel]

Ford is not in the business of making great sport cars. They, like every other company, are in the business of making money.
Staggered tire size = understeer = safer car = sell more cars = more money

Ford is not the only one providing staggered setups. BMW, Porsche, Lotus, Mercedes to name some.

They provide suspension /tire setup in high power applications to handle more power on exit out of turns in general.

My personal issue with staggered is that long term rears will wear more and you cannot rotate them. Once I ended up in a very unexpected and dangerous situation because of that.

Staggered is good as long as you can maintain even front/rear wear. And that is very expensive if you think about it.

 

[m3incorp]

I smile at this thread. If a person is concerned about getting the absolute most mileage out of a set of tires; square setup is the way to go "usually"; just make sure you rotate them regularly. On the other hand, there is a reason that some cars come with staggered set-ups, other than looks.

I am pretty sure that manufacturers that build a car with 335/25R20 on the rear, and 285/30R19 on the fronts (really staggered) tuned the suspension for those sizes.

With that having been said; some of our Mustangs come staggered and some don't. I guess a person can pick what they think is best for achieving whatever it is they are after.

 

[The Demon]

I smile at this thread. If a person is concerned about getting the absolute most mileage out of a set of tires; square setup is the way to go "usually"; just make sure you rotate them regularly. On the other hand, there is a reason that some cars come with staggered set-ups, other than looks.

I am pretty sure that manufacturers that build a car with 335/25R20 on the rear, and 285/30R19 on the fronts (really staggered) tuned the suspension for those sizes.

With that having been said; some of our Mustangs come staggered and some don't. I guess a person can pick what they think is best for achieving whatever it is they are after.

Mileage sucks…

 

[Flyhalf]

....what????????????

What...what?

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