What's the point of staggered wheels?

[Vlad Soare]

What is the normal and first reaction of a driver when the car start to understeer/push going through a corner?
Lifting of the gas... what happen then? Weight is transferred to the front, front tires get more traction and car turn... very simple and don’t require any driver training

Nope. The normal and first reaction of an untrained driver is to turn the steering wheel even more, which makes things worse. Then to stomp on the brakes, which puts even more stress on the already overwhelmed front tyres.
A regular driver will never just lift off smoothly while unwinding the steering a bit. No way. Not unless he's been trained for this.

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[luc]

Nope. The normal and first reaction of an untrained driver is to turn the steering wheel even more, which makes things worse. Then to stomp on the brakes, which puts even more stress on the already overwhelmed front tyres.
A regular driver will never just lift off smoothly while unwinding the steering a bit. No way. Not unless he's been trained for this.

I’m not going to argue with you, what I posted is based on over 30 years of track experience and maybe 20 years of instructing hpde
The first thought that’s go through a driver mind when that happen is : oh shit , I’m going too fast, and tied to this thought is a muscle memory lifting of the right foot....

 

[Norm Peterson]

Nope. The normal and first reaction of an untrained driver is to turn the steering wheel even more, which makes things worse. Then to stomp on the brakes, which puts even more stress on the already overwhelmed front tyres.
A regular driver will never just lift off smoothly while unwinding the steering a bit. No way. Not unless he's been trained for this.

The average driver certainly will lift. That does not mean that he will lift "gently and carefully"; if anything his throttle behavior will be anything but gentle and careful.


Norm

 

[Vlad Soare]

I think both you and Luc are thinking of a situation in which a driver enters the corner flat out, then at the very first sign of understeer he lifts the foot off the throttle. This causes a massive weight shift towards the front, the front wheels start gripping, and everyone's happy. The end. Marvellous.
That's all nice and good on a race track, but on the street it's usually not like that.
On the street most drivers will have already lifted off by the time they enter the corner. They will be either on low throttle, or downright coasting towards and into the corner. Or maybe even braking slightly. Then, in the middle of the corner, they will notice that the car won't turn, because the corner is a bit tighter than expected, or a bit more slippery than expected, and the current speed is still too high for the conditions. At that point they will turn the steering wheel even more, while the right foot will stomp on the brakes. And the car still won't turn.
I know, because I've been there.
I don't have decades of track experience - actually I have none, but I do have enough experience of real-life traffic. I've been in understeering situations myself, and I've seen others as well. It's really nasty.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think both you and Luc are thinking of a situation in which a driver enters the corner flat out, then at the very first sign of understeer he lifts the foot off the throttle. This causes a massive weight shift towards the front, the front wheels start gripping, and everyone's happy. The end. Marvellous.

The natural thing to do when you sense you're going too fast is to slow down, which first occurs as you lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal. Before you go to the brakes or even the steering, either of which you may or may not do. Track or street, it's that simple.

And that works very well as long as the car understeers under all (or at least most) driving conditions. It's also the wrong thing to do with an oversteering car, since giving more grip to the front tires (that already have too much grip relative to the rear tires) while lessening rear tire grip (that already isn't enough) is exactly what will make the oversteer worse. It's part of why cars like swing-axle VWs and Corvairs - and early Porsches - got their reputation. I'm talking in terms of tire grip here, which varies with more things than just forward load transfer but which ultimately has the rear of the car wanting to pass the front regardless of how many factors are at play.

That's all nice and good on a race track, but on the street it's usually not like that. On the street most drivers will have already lifted off by the time they enter the corner. They will be either on low throttle, or downright coasting towards and into the corner. Or maybe even braking slightly. Then, in the middle of the corner, they will notice that the car won't turn, because the corner is a bit tighter than expected, or a bit more slippery than expected, and the current speed is still too high for the conditions. At that point they will turn the steering wheel even more

If they're already out of the throttle and the situation is suddenly deteriorating, people will go to the steering because that's the only thing left in their driving tool kit. They've overdriven that part of the corner at least relative to their capabilities.

while the right foot will stomp on the brakes. And the car still won't turn.
I know, because I've been there.

Driver error.

I don't have decades of track experience - actually I have none, but I do have enough experience of real-life traffic. I've been in understeering situations myself, and I've seen others as well. It's really nasty.

Over-driving is like that. Whether you're outdriving your own skill set or overdriving relative to the conditions of the moment really doesn't matter. Sooner or later you'll find yourself in a situation a little past what you can do much about. Or way past.

You don't need "decades of track experience" to understand this if you have enough 'feel' for what the car is trying to do to keep yourself from getting too stupid. Having a firm enough grasp of the physics that are involved may also help. Some safe experience driving out past half a lateral g helps immensely if you're paying attention and trying to learn instead of just hooning around for the excitement of it.

FWIW, my first track day came when I was 64. I'd done a Richard Petty driving experience on the Las Vegas oval a dozen or so years earlier (set fastest speed in the group that day). But I've been driving - enthusiastically in the corners - for about as long as Ford has been producing Mustangs.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, it's driver error. It's over-driving. I completely agree.
But it's a kind of driver error that's common among regular, inexperienced drivers.
That's why I still think that, even though understeer may be fine for you or Luc, it's a nightmare for the vast majority of drivers. Because the vast majority of the drivers do not have a feel for what a car is doing, they do not have a grasp of the physics involved. And sooner or later they will over-drive. Sooner or later they will make those mistakes I mentioned. And when they do, the understeer will get them.

You're still not getting it. You're still looking at any amount of understeer as being A COMPLETELY BAD THING. It's not like that at all. Back in my university days there was this classmate of mine who held comparably simplistic beliefs.


Put those same regular, inexperienced drivers in an oversteering car - like that car of mine that I described briefly a few posts back - and they will spin it if they push it at all. Or if they only get caught out by a decreasing-radius turn. But they will spin it, guaranteed. Maybe tail-first into another lane, maybe tail-first into a curb or a tree or a pole or a ditch, or maybe just tail-first somewhere off the road.

What I'm saying is that you can't cherry-pick one situation where heavy understeer gets in the way of driver control without looking at its oversteering-car counterpart.


Norm

 

[Vlad Soare]

Put those same regular, inexperienced drivers in an oversteering car - like that car of mine that I described briefly a few posts back - and they will spin it if they push it at all. Or if they only get caught out by a decreasing-radius turn. But they will spin it, guaranteed. Maybe tail-first into another lane, maybe tail-first into a curb or a tree or a pole or a ditch, or maybe just tail-first somewhere off the road.

What I'm saying is that you can't cherry-pick one situation where heavy understeer gets in the way of driver control without looking at its oversteering-car counterpart.

This is exactly what I realized after having posted my latest message. Which is why I deleted it - not quickly enough, it seems.
You're right, of course. Now I see your point.

 

[luc]

I think both you and Luc are thinking of a situation in which a driver enters the corner flat out, then at the very first sign of understeer he lifts the foot off the throttle. This causes a massive weight shift towards the front, the front wheels start gripping, and everyone's happy. The end. Marvellous.
That's all nice and good on a race track, but on the street it's usually not like that.
On the street most drivers will have already lifted off by the time they enter the corner. They will be either on low throttle, or downright coasting towards and into the corner. Or maybe even braking slightly. Then, in the middle of the corner, they will notice that the car won't turn, because the corner is a bit tighter than expected, or a bit more slippery than expected, and the current speed is still too high for the conditions. At that point they will turn the steering wheel even more, while the right foot will stomp on the brakes. And the car still won't turn.
I know, because I've been there.
I don't have decades of track experience - actually I have none, but I do have enough experience of real-life traffic. I've been in understeering situations myself, and I've seen others as well. It's really nasty.

Common misconception about track work. Slow in and fast out is the rule

 

[shogun32]

since giving more grip to the front tires (that already have too much grip relative to the rear tires) while lessening rear tire grip (that already isn't enough) is exactly what will make the oversteer worse

my brother fancies himself a decent driver and he 360'd his '68 Beetle on a wet, non-divided highway because he lifted on corner entry.

 

[luc]

Personally I hate understeering car and appreciate a slightly oversteering one. Throttle steering is one of the most fun thing to do

 

[Hack]

Personally I hate understeering car and appreciate a slightly oversteering one. Throttle steering is one of the most fun thing to do

I don't like understeer that much, but it's safe. I especially appreciate understeer at higher speeds. The higher the speed the more I appreciate it. The tires that have the least grip want to be in front and I have trouble controlling a car when it wants to spin all the time.

I think throttle steering is fun in low traction situations just playing around, but it never made sense to me on track or in any situation where I was trying to get around a corner quickly.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Personally I hate understeering car and appreciate a slightly oversteering one. Throttle steering is one of the most fun thing to do

It may be the fun way, but it's not the fast way.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

Throttle steering is one of the most fun thing to do

but that is a MILE away from oversteer.

 

[Vlad Soare]

It may be the fun way, but it's not the fast way.

I will take fun over fast anytime.
You want fast? Buy a plane ticket.

 

[raptor17GT]

I will take fun over fast anytime.
You want fast? Buy a plane ticket.

until you lose control on the road and wipe out a family coming the other way. Where's the fun for them?

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