What is the deal with the hostility and resentfulness here now?

[Hack]

Today. We also need to look at the future as it is coming whether we like it or not. What happens if/when there is another gas crisis. It can happen just like it did in the 70's? What if/when there is another war in the Middle East? Gas prices go up the second there's a blip of trouble overseas. Doesn't matter where the gas actually comes from. Worldwide prices move up and down like the ocean. So today we are looking at plentiful supplies and reasonable prices. That could change tomorrow. There may be a time in the not to distant future that we look at long lines and $5.00 a gallon as the good old days. Oh yeah, and after all that there is a finite amount of natural fuel resources available. At some point some wiseass CEO at a major oil producer is going to say, "lets raise the prices because we are running out of oil".
Bottom lines that we need to ween ourselves off of oil for our own good. It could be electric, wind, solar, whatever. Right now the most advanced technology is electric. Sure its far from perfect now, but its the best we have and the technology is growing.

I agree with everything you said in your post.

Some time in the next 300 or so years, we will need to START weening ourselves off of oil. Right now there's an awful lot of it. If I had control I would allow markets to work naturally. As the supply of oil decreases, the price of gasoline will naturally increase and that will make other energy sources more competitive. Ethanol, natural gas, coal, hydrogen, electric - whatever. I don't really care that much what technology is used for the eventual replacement of gasoline.

The thing I object to is totalitarian governments forcing us to buy a product based on whatever companies are lining the politicians' pockets this year.

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[Bikeman315]

The thing I object to is totalitarian governments forcing us to buy a product based on whatever companies are lining the politicians' pockets this year.

Totally agree!
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

 

[Hack]

Totally agree!
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Ugghh, I started reading that and I vomited a little.

 

[IronG]

OK....I'll be the smartass....

LOL nice one! How long would that add 10 miles to a Tesla.....a week? :-)

 

[IronG]

Looks like C&D got a lemon........https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30361800/tesla-model-3-long-term-failure-stranded-while-parked/

This one and the other one I posted do show some of the weaknesses of EV's, particularly Tesla's. Hopefully this will change and become a distant memory 20-30 years from now.

 

[IronG]

Totally agree!
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

This is a fairly decent site, however it is plain to see the pro climate change bias. Nothing intrinsically wrong with it was made to be that way. Also most things around climate change (for or against) is bias leaning, so pretty par for the course.

 

[Hack]

This is a fairly decent site, however it is plain to see the pro climate change bias. Nothing intrinsically wrong with it was made to be that way. Also most things around climate change (for or against) is bias leaning, so pretty par for the course.

Intrinsically I would love to see scientific theories treated and discussed as theories rather than fact. But I realize that would be too much to ask.

 

[nrc]

Totally agree!
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Some of those aren't really fossil fuel specific. They're tax breaks for companies that make large investments in research, inventory, or depletable resources. But fine, eliminate all subsidies and tax breaks and let the market decide. There is far too much use of the tax code and regulatory policy as a mechanism for government control and crony capitalism.

I think that they both considered it and expected it. They may be many things but stupid isn't one of them. They just didn't care.

Exactly. Ford management doesn't care. They got plenty of warning about what was coming based on their "Mach 1" teaser. According to the latest Mustang Times they got the same response from within the company - 90% negative. Management basically said tough and told everyone to get on board.

 

[Bikeman315]

Manufacturers will continue to work on solving known issues regarding the use of EV’s.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...13782fc&bhid=26879169911744863510556225974723

 

[martinjlm]

Manufacturers will continue to work on solving known issues regarding the use of EV’s.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...13782fc&bhid=26879169911744863510556225974723

Interesting, but a lot of unanswered (unasked even?) questions. How does the thing know that a particular vehicle wants or needs a charge? I'll assume that the car would have to come into the lot saying "feed me" in some electronic broadcast form or another. And if the robot leaves the charger with the car and scoots off to find another hungry EV, what happens when the owner gets back before the robot has returned to reclaim the charge pack? Does the owner just have to wait until Robbie Robot gets back to them or do they just disconnect it and go? And if they disconnect it and leave, what is their liability should the charge pack come up damaged or missing before Robbie gets back to it? I'll just assume somebody is working on those and other implementation issues.

 

[Sivi70980]

I don't see what's so hard about making a longer stop for a road trip though. 15-25 minutes to go from 20% to 80% vs 5-7 minutes (my average) for gas. Bring a book, plan stops around meal times, and of course charge to 100% when stopping at the hotel for the night. Yes it takes more time but you're likely on vacation. Sometimes it's nice to actually stop and smell the roses. When I was hardcore into cycling (trained and climbed Pikes Peak) every ride was about getting faster, stronger, better. It took away from the fun and it took a good friend to get me back to slowing down and enjoying the freedom of being outside while my phone was miles away from me. I think this works on a road trip when you're not driving at stressful speeds and just trying to get there asap. Chill out and enjoy some random scenes or play some old school arcades or something while your car charges. We spend so much of our lives hustling and bustling and screaming to work and home that's it's nice to let it go, why not start with a "get there when I get there" road trip to the vacation destination. Tight schedule? Planning like has already been said.

 

[Hack]

I don't see what's so hard about making a longer stop for a road trip though. 15-25 minutes to go from 20% to 80% vs 5-7 minutes (my average) for gas. Bring a book, plan stops around meal times, and of course charge to 100% when stopping at the hotel for the night. Yes it takes more time but you're likely on vacation. Sometimes it's nice to actually stop and smell the roses. When I was hardcore into cycling (trained and climbed Pikes Peak) every ride was about getting faster, stronger, better. It took away from the fun and it took a good friend to get me back to slowing down and enjoying the freedom of being outside while my phone was miles away from me. I think this works on a road trip when you're not driving at stressful speeds and just trying to get there asap. Chill out and enjoy some random scenes or play some old school arcades or something while your car charges. We spend so much of our lives hustling and bustling and screaming to work and home that's it's nice to let it go, why not start with a "get there when I get there" road trip to the vacation destination. Tight schedule? Planning like has already been said.

Maybe you like to live at a slower pace than I, but imagine how big the "gas" stations would have to be if everyone was at the "pump" for 20 minutes instead of 2 minutes. 10x bigger. Yowsa. And no more having 3 or more filling locations in a row. It's no big deal getting blocked in for a couple minutes, but imagine being blocked for 20! Yuck.

If they can't figure out the technology with batteries but are still myopically focused on EV, they should come up with a standard size/shape format and just swap out batteries instead of trying to recharge them. That's something that could potentially be done quickly.

 

[Sivi70980]

Maybe you like to live at a slower pace than I, but imagine how big the "gas" stations would have to be if everyone was at the "pump" for 20 minutes instead of 2 minutes. 10x bigger. Yowsa. And no more having 3 or more filling locations in a row. It's no big deal getting blocked in for a couple minutes, but imagine being blocked for 20! Yuck.

If they can't figure out the technology with batteries but are still myopically focused on EV, they should come up with a standard size/shape format and just swap out batteries instead of trying to recharge them. That's something that could potentially be done quickly.

How many people are going on the same road trips at the same time? I get your argument and I believe it is a valid concern but I just don't see it being as bad as you make it sound. Work commuting wont be any different than your ICE vehicle except you'll never stop at a gas station, ever. Shopping trips where you charge is also something I don't think is needed at all, as someone else said, you don't see gas pumps in mall parking lots. The only time I see needing superchargers is really on road trips that are taken so few and far between that I don't see crowding being an issue. Of course there will be and already are those that want to charge their 90% charged EV for no good reason but that can't be THAT big of a problem. If I drive from Washington state to Colorado and plan my charging stops, I highly doubt I'll be waiting on another EV to get out of a charge stall, however as more EV's exist, more stalls will and are being created. I've done that drive before in my last car and it took me 18 hours only stopping for gas. In an EV and planning on stopping at a hotel half way, I can't see it being that bad at all. 2 relaxing days that would and should have been 2 relaxing days in my mini. Longer days of course but still 2 days of travel. ICE better? For sure! But EV isn't much worse. I'll end by saying I've never actually done a road trip in an EV so there are likely things that might suck that I don't currently see. Lets all convince @zackmd1 to give us rides around the country!! Kidding of course lol

 

[zackmd1]

How many people are going on the same road trips at the same time? I get your argument and I believe it is a valid concern but I just don't see it being as bad as you make it sound. Work commuting wont be any different than your ICE vehicle except you'll never stop at a gas station, ever. Shopping trips where you charge is also something I don't think is needed at all, as someone else said, you don't see gas pumps in mall parking lots. The only time I see needing superchargers is really on road trips that are taken so few and far between that I don't see crowding being an issue. Of course there will be and already are those that want to charge their 90% charged EV for no good reason but that can't be THAT big of a problem. If I drive from Washington state to Colorado and plan my charging stops, I highly doubt I'll be waiting on another EV to get out of a charge stall, however as more EV's exist, more stalls will and are being created. I've done that drive before in my last car and it took me 18 hours only stopping for gas. In an EV and planning on stopping at a hotel half way, I can't see it being that bad at all. 2 relaxing days that would and should have been 2 relaxing days in my mini. Longer days of course but still 2 days of travel. ICE better? For sure! But EV isn't much worse. I'll end by saying I've never actually done a road trip in an EV so there are likely things that might suck that I don't currently see. Lets all convince @zackmd1 to give us rides around the country!! Kidding of course lol

Haha! Keep in mind that the charge times I have reported are only for my Model 3 Standard Range. Alot of these other EVs (bolt, E-Tron, ipace, etc...) have MUCH larger batteries with MUCH lower peak charge rate capability. For instance, my Model 3 SR as a 54-55kw battery pack and can charge at up to 170kw peak rate, the Mach E standard has a 75kw pack and can only charge at 150kw peak. The bolt is even worse with a 75kw pack and only a ~75kw peak charge rate. So in real world terms, EVs other than Teslas at this time will take much longer to charge (the bolt can only get 90 miles in 30 min, less that half its capacity, my Model 3 SR can get ~150 miles in 30 min and that was before the charging speed update from 100kw to 170kw) even though Electrify America has 350kw capable fast chargers. Most non Tesla EVs cannot fully utilize these chargers yet. That is why, IMO for at least the first few generations of non Tesla EVs, hold off on buying if you intend to road trip in it and it is your only car. They will still be perfectly adequate for daily commutes and shorter trips as a secondary car. Once these EVs can take full advantage of the 350kw chargers then the story will be MUCH better.

 

[IronG]

I don't see what's so hard about making a longer stop for a road trip though. 15-25 minutes to go from 20% to 80% vs 5-7 minutes (my average) for gas. Bring a book, plan stops around meal times, and of course charge to 100% when stopping at the hotel for the night. Yes it takes more time but you're likely on vacation. Sometimes it's nice to actually stop and smell the roses. When I was hardcore into cycling (trained and climbed Pikes Peak) every ride was about getting faster, stronger, better. It took away from the fun and it took a good friend to get me back to slowing down and enjoying the freedom of being outside while my phone was miles away from me. I think this works on a road trip when you're not driving at stressful speeds and just trying to get there asap. Chill out and enjoy some random scenes or play some old school arcades or something while your car charges. We spend so much of our lives hustling and bustling and screaming to work and home that's it's nice to let it go, why not start with a "get there when I get there" road trip to the vacation destination. Tight schedule? Planning like has already been said.

You also have to account for the time it takes to get to a charger. If in a Tesla, you would want a supercharger. You also need to find one that is not only working, but also unused. If you do find one, if the other spots are filled, you will charge more slowly. These "issues" may not mean much to you, but for the vast majority of motorists they are issues they don't want to deal with. Just imagine the amount of people getting home with 20% charge and forgetting to plug in at night. So many people today forget that they needed to get gas and drive off and needing to stop in the morning rather than getting on their way home. I can only imagine those same people will forget to charge up. So not only do you have the same issues with ICE cars, they are compounded because of the time it takes to charge, the inability to find a fast charger quickly and other problems that can prevent or severely slow down your ability to charge. At some point it will be no different (hopefully better) than using an ICE vehicle, but that is several decades away. Europe will take less time to ramp up EV sales, but they will run into issues with their power grids long before they get past 30% saturation. Let's face it, EV's or some other alternative to oil is the future, but unless there is a huge breakthrough in tech in the next 5-10 years and infrastructures can out pace demand, it will be a long while still depending on good ole oil. The demand from the public is just not there right now to pump enough money into R&D needed to speed all the parts needed. Until that demand comes....just relax and enjoy your ICE.

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