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What is the deal with the hostility and resentfulness here now?

zackmd1

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You also need to find one that is not only working, but also unused
The first part is a non issue with Tesla. I have yet to come across a supercharger that was not working. Electrify America on the other hand, they have issues with broken chargers currently. Hopefully they can fix/iron out their issues soon. As another plus to Tesla EVs, EVGo has announced a partnership with Tesla and is installing Tesla connectors on all of their chargers. For me that means I get a fast charger locally finally...
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IronG

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Maybe you like to live at a slower pace than I, but imagine how big the "gas" stations would have to be if everyone was at the "pump" for 20 minutes instead of 2 minutes. 10x bigger. Yowsa. And no more having 3 or more filling locations in a row. It's no big deal getting blocked in for a couple minutes, but imagine being blocked for 20! Yuck.

If they can't figure out the technology with batteries but are still myopically focused on EV, they should come up with a standard size/shape format and just swap out batteries instead of trying to recharge them. That's something that could potentially be done quickly.
I like the idea of swapping batteries. I do it all the time for many of the hand and yard tools. Super easy and unless I forget to charge the extra battery, it is never a problem. The problem with EV batteries is that they are very heavy not to mention the human side. Most people don't want to wash their car let alone need to get out and swap a battery. If you have "techs" doing the swap, now the cost to charge up is getting closer to gasoline costs. They barely can make usable batteries today in a timely fashion, making them modular and swap-able will set them back 10 years and add more cost. This is not what is needed. What is needed is the ability to make EV purchases cheaper. If you can get a 300-400 mile range EV for 25k and at least on par with 25k cars today quality wise, you will automatically create demand. The problem is they do cost more to make and the raw materials for the batteries is fairly limited. That is why the majority of EV's today are 45k plus (not including govt handouts.) Any that are less are usually around 200 mile range or less and are pretty cheaply made. EV's are a nice dream, but it is just a dream right now. Also, something else may come along and make them obsolete.
 

IronG

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The first part is a non issue with Tesla. I have yet to come across a supercharger that was not working. Electrify America on the other hand, they have issues with broken chargers currently. Hopefully they can fix/iron out their issues soon. As another plus to Tesla EVs, EVGo has announced a partnership with Tesla and is installing Tesla connectors on all of their chargers. For me that means I get a fast charger locally finally...
I have seen and heard of Tesla chargers not working or working very slowly, but you are probably correct that they are better than the 3rd party ones.

What would you call a fast charger? I just looked on google maps and see a few, but most are 7.2KW or 8.8KW. I see one for 62KW and a Tesla one that is 120KW. There are about 20 sites within 30 mile driving distance. Most are 2-4 stalls and only 3 are more than 8.8KW which I assume is pretty slow. It also looks like chargepoint amd EVgo shows the number and how many are in use. Not sure if there is a better way to find them and know ahead of time if they are in use or not. EVgo also shows the type of plug. Edit....looking again, they all show the type of plug. It seems some have more than one. There are a lot of different types is seems.
 

zackmd1

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I like the idea of swapping batteries
That requires some form of standardization.... We barely can get companies to agree on what charging plug to use! But that would solve alot of issues yes... You can have battery swap stations instead of charging stations. It would solve the charge time issue as well as eliminate the degradation concerns.

There is a technology out there being developed that is a "refillable battery" or liquid flow battery. It uses an electrolyte solution to oxidize the anode to produce electricity. So basically you would pump out the old electrolyte and pump in new electrolyte similar to filling a tank with gas. Every 3k miles the anode material in the battery would have to be changed out but apparently its easier than an oil change and costs about the same at $65 currently.

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel...-drive-an-electric-car-up-to-3,000-miles.html
 

zackmd1

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What would you call a fast charger? I just looked on google maps and see a few, but most are 7.2KW or 8.8KW. I see one for 62KW and a Tesla one that is 120KW
Usually anything around 50kw and above is considered a DC fast charger or Level 3 Charger. The 7.2 and 8.8kw chargers are AC chargers or Level 2 and use the cars internal charge controller to convert AC to DC. DC fast chargers send DC power directly into the battery, bypassing the internal charge controller thus allowing for much higher charge rates.

Plugshare is usually a good way to find chargers.

https://www.plugshare.com/
 

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IronG

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That requires some form of standardization.... We barely can get companies to agree on what charging plug to use! But that would solve alot of issues yes... You can have battery swap stations instead of charging stations. It would solve the charge time issue as well as eliminate the degradation concerns.

There is a technology out there being developed that is a "refillable battery" or liquid flow battery. It uses an electrolyte solution to oxidize the anode to produce electricity. So basically you would pump out the old electrolyte and pump in new electrolyte similar to filling a tank with gas. Every 3k miles the anode material in the battery would have to be changed out but apparently its easier than an oil change and costs about the same at $65 currently.

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel...-drive-an-electric-car-up-to-3,000-miles.html
I saw this the other day. https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air
 

IronG

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Usually anything around 50kw and above is considered a DC fast charger or Level 3 Charger. The 7.2 and 8.8kw chargers are AC chargers or Level 2 and use the cars internal charge controller to convert AC to DC. DC fast chargers send DC power directly into the battery, bypassing the internal charge controller thus allowing for much higher charge rates.

Plugshare is usually a good way to find chargers.

https://www.plugshare.com/
Ok. the vast majority are pretty slow. I did look at Plugshare also and it seems to be pretty close if not the same as what you find in Google Maps although I only looked in a fairly short 30 mile radius. Also the places where they put the chargers seem odd. Some are somewhat smart locations, but a lot of them just seem to be :"wherever". They need to do a better job getting them closer to major highway exits. Only one in a spot like that was the Tesla station.
 

Hack

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I like the idea of swapping batteries. I do it all the time for many of the hand and yard tools. Super easy and unless I forget to charge the extra battery, it is never a problem. The problem with EV batteries is that they are very heavy not to mention the human side. Most people don't want to wash their car let alone need to get out and swap a battery. If you have "techs" doing the swap, now the cost to charge up is getting closer to gasoline costs. They barely can make usable batteries today in a timely fashion, making them modular and swap-able will set them back 10 years and add more cost. This is not what is needed. What is needed is the ability to make EV purchases cheaper. If you can get a 300-400 mile range EV for 25k and at least on par with 25k cars today quality wise, you will automatically create demand. The problem is they do cost more to make and the raw materials for the batteries is fairly limited. That is why the majority of EV's today are 45k plus (not including govt handouts.) Any that are less are usually around 200 mile range or less and are pretty cheaply made. EV's are a nice dream, but it is just a dream right now. Also, something else may come along and make them obsolete.
I agree EVs are more of a dream right now. They are for people who can afford multiple cars - not for replacing ICE vehicles at this time. I also agree swapping batteries is unlikely to happen. Since batteries wear out, nobody would want to swap their new battery for a crappy, nearly dead one. It's not like filling with gas.

Charging time needs to be much much faster for EVs to be practical and useful.
 

martinjlm

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I agree EVs are more of a dream right now. They are for people who can afford multiple cars - not for replacing ICE vehicles at this time. I also agree swapping batteries is unlikely to happen. Since batteries wear out, nobody would want to swap their new battery for a crappy, nearly dead one. It's not like filling with gas.

Charging time needs to be much much faster for EVs to be practical and useful.
Google “Better Place” to get the lowdown on battery swapping and why it will not work. Add to that the fact that most (if not all) new EV programs have the battery pack as a structural chassis element, making the likelihood of standardization pretty slim.
 

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Talking about going 200 miles on a $7 charge is like saying you can sleep at home for free while ignoring the cost of a mortgage.
Battery packs are disposable and expensive. There are a finite number of recharge cycles in any pack. This cost has to be weighed in versus the gas engine life span.
I'm not opposed to electric cars. You can drive one if you like.
I read in China they have streets with wireless charge lanes that recharge moving vehicles. But like somebody else mentioned how are we to build that when we can't even fix a few potholes?
 

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Sivi70980

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You also have to account for the time it takes to get to a charger. If in a Tesla, you would want a supercharger. You also need to find one that is not only working, but also unused. If you do find one, if the other spots are filled, you will charge more slowly. These "issues" may not mean much to you, but for the vast majority of motorists they are issues they don't want to deal with. Just imagine the amount of people getting home with 20% charge and forgetting to plug in at night. So many people today forget that they needed to get gas and drive off and needing to stop in the morning rather than getting on their way home. I can only imagine those same people will forget to charge up. So not only do you have the same issues with ICE cars, they are compounded because of the time it takes to charge, the inability to find a fast charger quickly and other problems that can prevent or severely slow down your ability to charge. At some point it will be no different (hopefully better) than using an ICE vehicle, but that is several decades away. Europe will take less time to ramp up EV sales, but they will run into issues with their power grids long before they get past 30% saturation. Let's face it, EV's or some other alternative to oil is the future, but unless there is a huge breakthrough in tech in the next 5-10 years and infrastructures can out pace demand, it will be a long while still depending on good ole oil. The demand from the public is just not there right now to pump enough money into R&D needed to speed all the parts needed. Until that demand comes....just relax and enjoy your ICE.
Yeah, I guess I'm stuck on the "perfect world" scenario. When we test drove a model S, my wife plugged her parents address in the Tesla iPad (tPad?) thing and it mapped our route from Washington state to Florida with recommended hotels to charge over night. I forget the time it gave for the trip but I'm sure if there were any issues with charging stations being broken or otherwise slowed down, that would make for a terrible journey. If a planned station was closed and you didn't know till you got there, it could leave you stranded. At least with an ICE vehicle, you can walk to get a gallon or 5 to get you to a station. In an EV you would have to ask a random business or homeowner to let you plug in your car for hours...although I bet you can make a ton of different movies based off that scenario.

We made that trip before on a December a few years ago and went south and hung a left at Texas. Temp gauge was freaking out (head gasket just starting to go) as we were driving through some very barren areas.. I was stressing out but the wife was still driving 90-110 and trying to give every other car on the road colonoscopies and "singing" to terrible music without a care. Made it no problem but I was convinced her Honda hated me as it mainly acted up when I was driving. For the record, I don't mind going 90+ but I do error on the side of safety when it comes to following distance lol.

As far as the forgetting to charge overnight, that sounds like a personal problem and not one "we" should have to deal with by putting chargers in the work/mall parking lots but that's just my opinion. Going EV is a lifestyle change and the price for not getting gas is charging your car every night. I can see it now though, "sorry sir, I forgot to charge my car last night so I'll be at work tomorrow". But I'm also of the mind set that born humans that identify as <insert a different gender/animal/mythical creature here> should get their own bathroom or any other special treatment.
 

IronG

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Yeah, I guess I'm stuck on the "perfect world" scenario. When we test drove a model S, my wife plugged her parents address in the Tesla iPad (tPad?) thing and it mapped our route from Washington state to Florida with recommended hotels to charge over night. I forget the time it gave for the trip but I'm sure if there were any issues with charging stations being broken or otherwise slowed down, that would make for a terrible journey. If a planned station was closed and you didn't know till you got there, it could leave you stranded. At least with an ICE vehicle, you can walk to get a gallon or 5 to get you to a station. In an EV you would have to ask a random business or homeowner to let you plug in your car for hours...although I bet you can make a ton of different movies based off that scenario.

We made that trip before on a December a few years ago and went south and hung a left at Texas. Temp gauge was freaking out (head gasket just starting to go) as we were driving through some very barren areas.. I was stressing out but the wife was still driving 90-110 and trying to give every other car on the road colonoscopies and "singing" to terrible music without a care. Made it no problem but I was convinced her Honda hated me as it mainly acted up when I was driving. For the record, I don't mind going 90+ but I do error on the side of safety when it comes to following distance lol.

As far as the forgetting to charge overnight, that sounds like a personal problem and not one "we" should have to deal with by putting chargers in the work/mall parking lots but that's just my opinion. Going EV is a lifestyle change and the price for not getting gas is charging your car every night. I can see it now though, "sorry sir, I forgot to charge my car last night so I'll be at work tomorrow". But I'm also of the mind set that born humans that identify as <insert a different gender/animal/mythical creature here> should get their own bathroom or any other special treatment.
It's hard to believe that anyone would want to plan a trip around charging their car. Maybe I don't want to veer off the road 10 miles at a place I don't necessarily want to go to or hotel I want to sleep at. You are correct that it is a lifestyle change in the form of being told where to go, how to spend your time and do it without question. As for a DD, a Prius is a much better value. You can get one for about 25k go about 600 miles on a tank of gas and never every have to waste time charging. You can also feel good that you are "saving" the planet. Hybrids are only going to get better and are the real alternative to ICE only vehicles right now. Full EV's just seem to be too far ahead of their time. People and the infrastructure to support them is just not there yet.
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