Upgrade or switch cars? (DD, occasional track)

[WItoTX]

That's well and all, except I didn't see where he ever said he just wants to go faster (maybe I missed it in a later post). He specifically said he wants a more buttoned down and fun to drive car. There's a lot of cars with much better handling than the PP1/Bullitt w/ MagneRide. And there's no reason why someone can't want to learn to be a better track driver in a better handling car.

You have a ZL1 non-1LE. Your opinion doesn't matter. You bought a drag car.

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[Lorne34]

My Tacoma handles everything I ask from it when commuting, getting groceries, or carving highway exits at 0.7 Gs. Its just as fast as the M2s and Porsches I pass on the highway… well until we start getting into doing things that would get you arrested.

(Ok, welll the emergency braking could be better, but in its defense its got K02s on it)

if you can’t drive a slow car fast, a faster car won’t help you (and a GT mustang is not even a ‘slow’ car).

put your money into instruction and seat time. You can go buy that faster car, but the track rats in miatas will still run you down and gobble you up. You can own the fast car, but you still have to find someone who knows how drive it in order to extract that performance.

in other words - its the indian, not the arrow. All the Motorweeks and Car and Driver magazines and Top Gears a s YouTube stars make it sound like all you need to do is own that faster machine, but its far from that. Good drivers in slower cars will /wreck/inexperienced drivers in faster cars. I chased down a Porsche GT3 on Hoosier A7s once in my GT mustang (well until I boiled the brakes). Thats not supposed to happen, and thats not even unusual for HPDE track days

watching a guy in a GT350R get goaded by his girlfriend into trying to out lap a “slower” GT350 driver who actually had skills, and then nearly wreck his R into a concrete wall was kinda fun. He was so embarassed/scared he up and quit the track day right there. Don’t be the guy in the R who‘s chasing his ego and thinking its all about the car, or that it actually matters at all at an HPDE event if you’re faster than X car/driver or slower. It doesnt matter! Invest in your own growth as a driver. Be slow for a while. Drive a lesser car with body roll and narrow tires. You’ll learn a lot faster. People always want to buy parts. Buy skill instead, it lasts longer and its a lot more rewarding.

ok I’m going to go back to playing with the $$$$ carbon fiber wing I just bought, which I don’t need, but looks amazing. ;)

I agree with Jstang23 and Nightmaremoon. I check my ego at the gate when going to a HPDE. I've only been to 4, but quickly realized that this is a whole different ballgame vs racing to stop lights on the street or spirited country roads. I started out with a 2016GT thinking I would track it, but ended up doing a bunch of mods with no real direction and the result was an uncomfortable, undesirable street car. I ended up purchasing a GT350 which I know is a more capable car than the driver (me) but it checks all the boxes. Great handling car on the street, back roads, and highway. Very comfortable as a Grand Touring car cruising in 6th gear with the exhaust valves closed.
My first trip to the Tail of the Dragon was an epiphany for me of the handling capabilities of this car. It's on the heavy side, but does not handle like it; the car shrinks around me when driving.
At the same time it is track ready for anyone who is wanting to do regular track days. No need to swap tires, brakes, fluid, etc until they expire.
Couldn't believe I was driving the same car on my way home from Road America after my first track day. It was like dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Yes, I could change the wing, tires, suspension, perform weight reduction measures, etc to provide more time saving "potential", but I know that I need to work on my Driver's mod for a long time before I hit that limit (if ever).
If you love modding and want to create something unique then modifying the bullitt or a GT would be the way to go, but for me the GT350 (non-R) is a complete out of the box solution for a fun street/track car.
Oh, forgot to mention the sound or the 8250 redline.....

 

['19Bullitt.32]

It wouldn't "button down" the car like a spring & damper change but perhaps I could dial out some understeer with a thicker rear sway bar?

 

[Hack]

Have you considered a Porsche Cayman?

If you want comfort and great handling in the same vehicle, the lighter and lower the car the better. Now I realize a Cayman might be expensive, but Porsches tend to be well built and they handle great. If you get the right model Cayman that's a few years old it could be a lot of fun both on track and the street.

I'm very partial to Porsche. I just don't own one because I'm also really cheap.

I also am a little tall to be comfortable in a Cayman. That's the main reason I got rid of my C5 Z06. That car would have been the perfect track only vehicle at 3,000 lbs. Great body control without overly stiff suspension due to light weight and very low CoG. The LS6 isn't very good, but that problem can be fixed through the aftermarket.

The problem is that Mustangs are actually quite good. If you want something better on track and also for it to be a reliable daily driver that is comfortable, your list gets really short.

 

['19Bullitt.32]

Have you considered a Porsche Cayman?

If you want comfort and great handling in the same vehicle, the lighter and lower the car the better. Now I realize a Cayman might be expensive, but Porsches tend to be well built and they handle great. If you get the right model Cayman that's a few years old it could be a lot of fun both on track and the street.

I'm very partial to Porsche. I just don't own one because I'm also really cheap.

I also am a little tall to be comfortable in a Cayman. That's the main reason I got rid of my C5 Z06. That car would have been the perfect track only vehicle at 3,000 lbs. Great body control without overly stiff suspension due to light weight and very low CoG. The LS6 isn't very good, but that problem can be fixed through the aftermarket.

The problem is that Mustangs are actually quite good. If you want something better on track and also for it to be a reliable daily driver that is comfortable, your list gets really short.

I did consider a used Caymen @2014/15.

I wouldn't want to DD it. A little short on power for the ones I can afford. (
$65k or so)

I checked out some Caymen forums and saw some reliability issues coming up on them. And being German, expensive to fix.

I checked out the Supra forums.

You guys were right. While it is a 500 lb lighter car the suspension needs work. Undesirable rear geometry changes, front & rear feeling "disconnected", suspension clearance issues, and front tie rods getting bent and broken.

Plus, newer performance cars are simply hard & expensive to get. (Waiting, corresponding, more waiting, frustration, ADM, taxes)

It would influence the decision greatly if dealers had all manner of these cars sitting on lots or easily ordered. But that's not reality.

If I switched to one of the cars I'm interested in (1LE, Mach 1, Caymen, Corvette, Supra) I'd be selling the Bullitt and adding @$15k-20k.

That's alot of track fees and consumables!

Today I'm leaning towards making "value" changes to what I have and see if those satisfy. (Make it more satisfying to throw into a turn)

When I think of my Genesis Coupe, its limits were a bit low, but it was responsive, pretty flat in a turn, and fun. That's what i need to bring me joy.

I don't get emotionally attached to a car because it's beautiful, or expensive, or paid for, or other people like it. I get attached when it brings me joy to listen to it, turn, brake, and accelerate in it.

There is also a bonding that takes place when you and your car are subjected to danger and make it out okay like collision avoidance on the street and self-induced drama like track time.

I hope I'm not rambling.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

I did consider a used Caymen @2014/15.

I wouldn't want to DD it. A little short on power for the ones I can afford. (
$65k or so)

I checked out some Caymen forums and saw some reliability issues coming up on them. And being German, expensive to fix.

I checked out the Supra forums.

You guys were right. While it is a 500 lb lighter car the suspension needs work. Undesirable rear geometry changes, front & rear feeling "disconnected", suspension clearance issues, and front tie rods getting bent and broken.

Plus, newer performance cars are simply hard & expensive to get. (Waiting, corresponding, more waiting, frustration, ADM, taxes)

It would influence the decision greatly if dealers had all manner of these cars sitting on lots or easily ordered. But that's not reality.

If I switched to one of the cars I'm interested in (1LE, Mach 1, Caymen, Corvette, Supra) I'd be selling the Bullitt and adding @$15k-20k.

That's alot of track fees and consumables!

Today I'm leaning towards making "value" changes to what I have and see if those satisfy. (Make it more satisfying to throw into a turn)

When I think of my Genesis Coupe, its limits were a bit low, but it was responsive, pretty flat in a turn, and fun. That's what i need to bring me joy.

I don't get emotionally attached to a car because it's beautiful, or expensive, or paid for, or other people like it. I get attached when it brings me joy to listen to it, turn, brake, and accelerate in it.

There is also a bonding that takes place when you and your car are subjected to danger and make it out okay like collision avoidance on the street and self-induced drama like track time.

I hope I'm not rambling.

To me the answer for you is clear: 6th Gen Camaro SS 1LE. It’s a more buttoned down car than even a GT350, and a lot less money. It’s heavy-ish but ~100 lbs lighter than a Bullitt. Go test drive one and tell us what you think.

I think there’s a guy on here that tracks his cars and invested thousands into suspension upgrades into his Mustang GT and even then it doesn’t match his OEM SS 1LE.

Not to mention the other upgrades: forged wheels, eLSD, Tremec 6 speed, all the coolers for track work, bigger fuel tank, Brembos all around, etc.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

You have a ZL1 non-1LE. Your opinion doesn't matter. You bought a drag car.

Hmm, weird, is that why my friend in his GT350 can’t keep up with me on twisty roads? Too much straight line speed?

 

['19Bullitt.32]

To me the answer for you is clear: 6th Gen Camaro SS 1LE. It’s a more buttoned down car than even a GT350, and a lot less money. It’s heavy-ish but ~100 lbs lighter than a Bullitt. Go test drive one and tell us what you think.

I think there’s a guy on here that tracks his cars and invested thousands into suspension upgrades into his Mustang GT and even then it doesn’t match his OEM SS 1LE.

Not to mention the other upgrades: forged wheels, eLSD, Tremec 6 speed, all the coolers for track work, bigger fuel tank, Brembos all around, etc.

I've only driven an SS.

I agree, though. For the weight, the 1LE 2SS would be the car for me.

If I was determined to have something lighter of course it would have to be something else.

And yes, the 16 gal Mustang fuel tank is too small. My Genesis held about 1.5 gal more, a Camaro gets a 19 gal and Corvette is bigger than that IIRC.

 

[Hack]

I did consider a used Caymen @2014/15.

I wouldn't want to DD it. A little short on power for the ones I can afford. (
$65k or so)

You should at least try driving one. Remember, a 2014 Cayman weighs about 1,000 lbs less than a Mustang. So it doesn't need as much power. Yes it's more of a momentum car than the Mustang is, but your complaints about a heavy car and understeer will be addressed.

You can't have everything. I put the Ford Performance track handling kit on my 2017 PP1, and it's pretty good. It doesn't control body motions as well as the GT350 mag ride did, but the general feel of the car and ride firmness is close. I'm not sure what would be best with your mag ride. I know some people mod them with an add-on module, but I'm not sure if you want to go that far.

I've only driven an SS.

I agree, though. For the weight, the 1LE 2SS would be the car for me.

If I was determined to have something lighter of course it would have to be something else.

And yes, the 16 gal Mustang fuel tank is too small. My Genesis held about 1.5 gal more, a Camaro gets a 19 gal and Corvette is bigger than that IIRC.

I always wanted to like the Camaro. I've driven them a few times trying to convince myself just to try something different because I've owned so many Mustangs. Between the engine, shifter, ergonomics and just the feel of the car - I could never make myself buy one. I think your complaints about a heavy car and a comfortable vs. overly firm ride are going to be similar between a Mustang and a Camaro. They are very similar cars. Track testing shows the times to be very close if they have similar tires on both. Times are so close you will not notice a seat of the pants difference. You will need a timer to tell the difference.

 

['19Bullitt.32]

You should at least try driving one. Remember, a 2014 Cayman weighs about 1,000 lbs less than a Mustang. So it doesn't need as much power. Yes it's more of a momentum car than the Mustang is, but your complaints about a heavy car and understeer will be addressed.

You can't have everything. I put the Ford Performance track handling kit on my 2017 PP1, and it's pretty good. It doesn't control body motions as well as the GT350 mag ride did, but the general feel of the car and ride firmness is close. I'm not sure what would be best with your mag ride. I know some people mod them with an add-on module, but I'm not sure if you want to go that far.



I always wanted to like the Camaro. I've driven them a few times trying to convince myself just to try something different because I've owned so many Mustangs. Between the engine, shifter, ergonomics and just the feel of the car - I could never make myself buy one. I think your complaints about a heavy car and a comfortable vs. overly firm ride are going to be similar between a Mustang and a Camaro. They are very similar cars. Track testing shows the times to be very close if they have similar tires on both. Times are so close you will not notice a seat of the pants difference. You will need a timer to tell the difference.

I have considered the 1LE, compared to a mildly modified PP1 or stock Mach 1, may be more of a lateral move and not worth the effort.

 

[tosha]

It wouldn't "button down" the car like a spring & damper change but perhaps I could dial out some understeer with a thicker rear sway bar?

Understeer in this car is a result of low front grip, just by putting stiffer rear sway bar you would effectively reduce rear grip and make car worse than it is now.

In order to make it more neutral, all you need is square set of wheels, proper alignment would help some as well.

Springs and sway bars will address excessive body roll (though some more experienced folks here choose to keep the stock sway bar in the rear).

You don't need to do anything with your dampers, they are already great for your purposes, especially with one of the available tunes option.

 

[bnightstar]

Understeer in this car is a result of low front grip, just by putting stiffer rear sway bar you would effectively reduce rear grip and make car worse than it is now.

In order to make it more neutral, all you need is square set of wheels, proper alignment would help some as well.

Springs and sway bars will address excessive body roll (though some more experienced folks here choose to keep the stock sway bar in the rear).

You don't need to do anything with your dampers, they are already great for your purposes, especially with one of the available tunes option.

You can make the car neutral on the stock 255/275 tires but you need to increase the front spring rate and align the car. As I said if I was in his position and Bullitt was actually on my shopping list. I would add just the FP Magnaride kit this is effectively the PP2 suspension (springs, calibration and sway bars), camber plates and do a performance alignment. This will make the car super fun on both street/track. Then probably will buy a cheap set of 19x10 SVE wheels and add some square 285/35/19 for track. And spend a lot of time on HPDE events.

 

[Hack]

Understeer in this car is a result of low front grip, just by putting stiffer rear sway bar you would effectively reduce rear grip and make car worse than it is now.

I agree a stiffer rear bar will reduce rear grip, but that will make the car more neutral. The rear bar will work the rear tires harder, taking some of the load off the front bar, so the front tires will have more available grip for cornering. Hopefully that makes sense, I'm not the best at explaining these things.

I have considered the 1LE, compared to a mildly modified PP1 or stock Mach 1, may be more of a lateral move and not worth the effort.

It's not going to be night and day different. Of course the bigger cubic inch engine will feel a little more torquey down low and fall slightly flat at higher RPMs. And there's some differences in visibility. The Camaro seats are a little more comfortable for me. But it's not a major change like if you went to a Miata, GR86 or Cayman 2800 lb vehicle.

 

[tosha]

You can make the car neutral on the stock 255/275 tires but you need to increase the front spring rate and align the car.

Not sure about that.. when I'm on 255/275, front gives up and starts plowing first when having fun on highway ramps.

As I said if I was in his position and Bullitt was actually on my shopping list. I would add just the FP Magnaride kit this is effectively the PP2 suspension (springs, calibration and sway bars)

This kit is much better than PP2 suspension. Hardware portion is an upgrade for PP1, PP2 and GT350.

This will make the car super fun on both street/track. Then probably will buy a cheap set of 19x10 SVE wheels and add some square 285/35/19 for track.

Yep, it's same advise I posted 5 pages ago

 

[NightmareMoon]

It wouldn't "button down" the car like a spring & damper change but perhaps I could dial out some understeer with a thicker rear sway bar?

Absolutely a bump in rear swaybar stiffness can shift the car towards understeer mid corner. Sways are great for that.

base cars need stiffer springs and better shocks, the PP cars respond well to just shocks. Idk offhand where the bullet sits on that spectrum, but starting with the swaybar balance by picking up some adjustable bars is a great idea.

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