Tuners dissappearing [closed due to politics discussions]

[Gregs24]

Okay. So if you are aware, and the goal is to use less oil - why would the focus be on the automotive industry?

In fact, the UK gets over 35% of it's power from fossil fuels. Most from natural gas. And come Winter time in the UK - coal burning power plants crank back up for more capacity. Why? Because when people need heat they are either using appliances that use electricity (and the current production from wind (24%), Nuclear (17%), solar (4%) etc) can't keep up with demand during the Winter.


My point? You have been sold a bill of goods. The world isn't close to running out of oil, much less fossil fuels.

Why not focus on the automotive industry when it uses so much oil, second only to heating / light ? I'm speaking objectively here - I love my V8 but I am not so blind that I can't see what is going on in the world.

UK will have completely phased out coal from the electricity supply by 2024. Wind based production is so high in the winter that it exceeds the drop in solar, so that overall renewables produce more in the winter in the UK

Nobody said the world was running out of oil. The issue is burning fossil fuels and the effects thereof.

Sponsored

 

[Gregs24]

To your point, not that long ago 2010, the GT from the factory put out 315 HP w/325 lbs torque. Just five short years later the entry level 2015 4 cylinder EcoBoost put out 310 HP w/320 lbs of torque. Now another 5 years and you can purchase a GT500 with 760 HP..... from the factory..... YES, technology and the combustible engine have come an extremely long way!

Indeed they have and there is still plenty to come. F1 hybrid engines are now managing in excess of 50% thermal efficiency compared to just over 20% for most road cars. This will trickle down.

 

[Interceptor]

Let's get back to the turners disappearing.... Once they got all the tunners scared straight the government is going after cows.
This is the plan.

 

[WildHorse]

I'm not going to argue about the irrefutable evidence of global warming and greenhouse gasses. Your lack of understanding doesn't make you right.

You do realize 60+ million years ago the wasn't a stitch of ice anywhere on the planet and co2 was 20-50 times more than today right ? Then there's solar minimum/maximums, Milankovitch cycles, all kinds of shit that has a much greater effect on climate change the what us mere mortals can do.

 

[Gregs24]

You do realize 60+ million years ago the wasn't a stitch of ice anywhere on the planet and co2 was 20-50 times more than today right ? Then there's solar minimum/maximums, Milankovitch cycles, all kinds of shit that has a much greater effect on climate change the what us mere mortals can do.

No point responding to rubbish like this, so time to get back on topic

 

[Norm Peterson]

If you're driving a car that NEVER sets its tires on asphalt for a weekly/daily or monthly timed event such as head to head competition drag racing (or insert any other competitive racing here) - there's absolutely NO benefit on a stock vehicle to running without cats, period. This isn't the 1970/1980/1990's any more folks...

This ^^^

The problem concerning cats seems to be the early reputation that came with that era's converter technology. I'm more familiar with GM's pellet-style cats, which could hardly choke their way to passing 200 cfm at reference pressure drop (typically 25 inches of water). Back in those days, noticeable power gains were there to be had by going catless. If your engine was itself capable of generating 400 cfm of exhaust - a 350-ish CID (5.7L) engine can make that much at only 4500 rpm or so - that meant 4 psi of backpressure even in the midrange. And 4 psi roughly corresponds to 8%, maybe 10% power loss.

Unfortunately that legacy persists even though current cat designs are far more free-flowing. Never mind that OE mufflers aren't nearly as stuffy as they once were. Freeing up muffler flow benefits the OEMs with regard to performance just like it did us enthusiasts, they just have to work harder in order to pass sound levels at the same time. Maybe even more an OEM benefit, actually, since it's in their favor to avoid having to pass gas-guzzler taxes on the the consumer.

I'm not a greenie - but all I'm saying is, I want 1 of you who NEVER take your car to the track and have NEVER been at a track - but run catless to speak up and tell me what actual and factual data do you have that shows removing your cats was a gain for daily driving performance?

Not exactly what you're asking for, but I clearly remember that once I replaced the pellet-type cat on the '79 Malibu I had with a slightly larger honeycomb-style cat it wasn't worth the trouble to run a "test pipe" between periodic inspections. And that was before running the 600 cfm cat I mentioned in this post.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

No point responding to rubbish like this, so time to get back on topic

Rubbish? Or does it simply not fit the green narrative very well? Methinks denial might be a two-edged sword here.

And that's not coming from an 'anti-green' perspective. Out-of-hand dismissal of possible points, well, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander . . .


Norm

 

[WildHorse]

No point responding to rubbish like this, so time to get back on topic

Rubish lol. Expecting no less when science gets in the way of your thought process. Better sell your Mustang and by a eco friendly vegan inspiring bicycle.

 

[Gregs24]

Rubish lol. Expecting no less when science gets in the way of your thought process. Better sell your Mustang and by a eco friendly vegan inspiring bicycle.

I am not going to argue with you as it has been covered on here and elsewhere many times over. The person who is struggling with science is you - if you don't believe me check out NASA who may just know a bit more about it than you.

LOL to you too if that is your preferred level of interaction!

Causes | Facts – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet (nasa.gov)

 

[Gregs24]

Rubbish? Or does it simply not fit the green narrative very well? Methinks denial might be a two-edged sword here.

And that's not coming from an 'anti-green' perspective. Out-of-hand dismissal of possible points, well, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander . . .


Norm

I prefer 'realistic' narrative Norm. There are some wierdy beardy green fallacies, but just as many deniers pedalling false narratives too. Both stand out like sore thumbs!

I dismissed because it has been covered on this forum at length and many are already fed up with the thread drift ! More than happy to have a discussion with somebody who can demonstrate a balanced view such as yourself, but probably for another place than this thread !

 

[Onlyone]

If you don't, then don't bother replying!

I’m just honestly curious, if you care so damn much, why the hell do you own ICE vehicles? Hypocrite much? Fall on your sword or STFU.

 

[ctandc72]

Why not focus on the automotive industry when it uses so much oil, second only to heating / light ? I'm speaking objectively here - I love my V8 but I am not so blind that I can't see what is going on in the world.

UK will have completely phased out coal from the electricity supply by 2024. Wind based production is so high in the winter that it exceeds the drop in solar, so that overall renewables produce more in the winter in the UK

Actually the stated phase out year is 2025. But right now there are at least two coal fired power plants in the UK with no planned closure dates. What's really funny, is that the government in Great Britain is REALLY careful about its wording on this subject.

Great Britain imports electricity from Ireland, the Netherlands and France. All of these countries have coal burning power plants.

It's like California - keep trumpeting the fact all of your power plants are going away from fossil fuels.........just don't announce the fact that you can't generate enough power to sustain your country without importing electricity from other countries / states that burn coal.

There's also the blurb about "..as long as security electricity supplies are maintained......."

It's the fine print that gets you.

Nobody said the world was running out of oil. The issue is burning fossil fuels and the effects thereof.

So what explains the other warm periods the Earth has gone through. Periods verified by Scientists? Some of these periods before human beings were here to rub two sticks together for fire?

What effects are you referring to? CO2 levels? That's a funny thing. A lot of scientists disagree about current levels compared to the formulas used to measure CO2 levels in history. Somebody needs to tell them the "Science is settled"...........

There are more people on this planet than ever before. That's a fact. With more people comes more CO2........another fact. But it's not simple and it's definitely not "Settled". Climate scientists can't even agree on why , according to current models, the last time CO2 levels were as high as they are now - the surface temps were SIGNIFICANTLY warmer than they are now and sea levels were 50ft or more higher.

Questioning actions by governing bodies, based on models and predictions is not denying science. What if the cure is worse than the disease?

Scientists told us there would be food shortages and wide spread famine across the world - decades ago. The planet couldn't handle this many people, then the number got moved up and so on and so on.

Oil was running out - "peak oil"..........then technology advanced.

Green energy pushes from major countries...........countries that IMPORT electricity from other countries that don't have the same restrictions........how the hell is that progress?

As energy prices go up - more and more people will slide into poverty. That's a fact.

But yeah, I'm done here with this subject. Anything that contradicts what you have decided is the truth - you belittle and get personal.

As for tuners disappearing..........only those who jumped on the train to make some quick money. But just like most everything else no one seems to want to look at who might benefit from these actions the EPA has taken.

Hmm...........who would benefit from the automotive aftermarket not being able to modify the software / code that runs engines........

You can get a glimpse of that future by looking at John Deere products. If you think for one minute that auto manufacturers would love nothing more than being able to "seal" their vehicles so that no one could work on / maintenance / service them - but the dealers who sell them - you are deluding yourself.

There are plenty of gear heads who work at automotive manufacturers..........but the accounting departments and shareholders will always have the last say.

It's EASY for the EPA to do this now.......it fits the current narrative. Makes them look like the good guys, all while raking in $$$ in fines and restitution with law suits. You ain't seen nothing until you've seen a government come after you in court. Doesn't matter if you are guilty or innocent - they can beat you down because unless you're Elon Musk or the like - it's simple whose wallet is bigger. And spending taxpayer money isn't something they loose sleep over.

I agree that modern catalytic converters - and removing them - don't give you enough power to justify the expense / risk in the vast majority of cases. But what I find telling - what I've wondered for YEARS.............if all this was TRULY about the environment, why wouldn't there be a federally mandated schedule for emissions testing?

No visual needed - just a tailpipe test. If it's about the environment, wouldn't that be the quickest and easiest way? Just look at California..........it's okay to have a classic car, with all the antiquated rudimentary emissions devices that were available back then - but put a modern, fuel-injected, more powerful and more efficient engine in that same car? Not allowed - or ridiculously hard to get approved and smogged for daily driver.

My big question is where are all these used up EV batteries going to go? And why something like a third of all EV buyers move to a ICE powered vehicle after owning an EV if they are so great?

Something like HALF of the materials in an EV battery can be recycled / repurposed. So where do they all go? Well they get shipped out to countries that don't have stringent emissions / environmental laws....so out of sight out of mind.

So let's clean up the air with EVs.............flash forward 50 years. Now the world is dealing with environmental disasters where all these materials were mined - and entire countries have become dumping grounds for used up EV batteries........because companies were able to lower cost by not using valuable materials in battery production (like Cobalt) - the same materials that gave the financial incentives for companies to recycle what could be recycled in the first place.

Emotional solutions to real problems are never really solutions. But at least we feel good about ourselves.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Actually the stated phase out year is 2025. But right now there are at least two coal fired power plants in the UK with no planned closure dates. What's really funny, is that the government in Great Britain is REALLY careful about its wording on this subject.

Great Britain imports electricity from Ireland, the Netherlands and France. All of these countries have coal burning power plants.

It's like California - keep trumpeting the fact all of your power plants are going away from fossil fuels.........just don't announce the fact that you can't generate enough power to sustain your country without importing electricity from other countries / states that burn coal.

There's also the blurb about "..as long as security electricity supplies are maintained......."

It's the fine print that gets you.



So what explains the other warm periods the Earth has gone through. Periods verified by Scientists? Some of these periods before human beings were here to rub two sticks together for fire?

What effects are you referring to? CO2 levels? That's a funny thing. A lot of scientists disagree about current levels compared to the formulas used to measure CO2 levels in history. Somebody needs to tell them the "Science is settled"...........

There are more people on this planet than ever before. That's a fact. With more people comes more CO2........another fact. But it's not simple and it's definitely not "Settled". Climate scientists can't even agree on why , according to current models, the last time CO2 levels were as high as they are now - the surface temps were SIGNIFICANTLY warmer than they are now and sea levels were 50ft or more higher.

Questioning actions by governing bodies, based on models and predictions is not denying science. What if the cure is worse than the disease?

Scientists told us there would be food shortages and wide spread famine across the world - decades ago. The planet couldn't handle this many people, then the number got moved up and so on and so on.

Oil was running out - "peak oil"..........then technology advanced.

Green energy pushes from major countries...........countries that IMPORT electricity from other countries that don't have the same restrictions........how the hell is that progress?

As energy prices go up - more and more people will slide into poverty. That's a fact.

But yeah, I'm done here with this subject. Anything that contradicts what you have decided is the truth - you belittle and get personal.

As for tuners disappearing..........only those who jumped on the train to make some quick money. But just like most everything else no one seems to want to look at who might benefit from these actions the EPA has taken.

Hmm...........who would benefit from the automotive aftermarket not being able to modify the software / code that runs engines........

You can get a glimpse of that future by looking at John Deere products. If you think for one minute that auto manufacturers would love nothing more than being able to "seal" their vehicles so that no one could work on / maintenance / service them - but the dealers who sell them - you are deluding yourself.

There are plenty of gear heads who work at automotive manufacturers..........but the accounting departments and shareholders will always have the last say.

It's EASY for the EPA to do this now.......it fits the current narrative. Makes them look like the good guys, all while raking in $$$ in fines and restitution with law suits. You ain't seen nothing until you've seen a government come after you in court. Doesn't matter if you are guilty or innocent - they can beat you down because unless you're Elon Musk or the like - it's simple whose wallet is bigger. And spending taxpayer money isn't something they loose sleep over.

I agree that modern catalytic converters - and removing them - don't give you enough power to justify the expense / risk in the vast majority of cases. But what I find telling - what I've wondered for YEARS.............if all this was TRULY about the environment, why wouldn't there be a federally mandated schedule for emissions testing?

No visual needed - just a tailpipe test. If it's about the environment, wouldn't that be the quickest and easiest way? Just look at California..........it's okay to have a classic car, with all the antiquated rudimentary emissions devices that were available back then - but put a modern, fuel-injected, more powerful and more efficient engine in that same car? Not allowed - or ridiculously hard to get approved and smogged for daily driver.

My big question is where are all these used up EV batteries going to go? And why something like a third of all EV buyers move to a ICE powered vehicle after owning an EV if they are so great?

Something like HALF of the materials in an EV battery can be recycled / repurposed. So where do they all go? Well they get shipped out to countries that don't have stringent emissions / environmental laws....so out of sight out of mind.

So let's clean up the air with EVs.............flash forward 50 years. Now the world is dealing with environmental disasters where all these materials were mined - and entire countries have become dumping grounds for used up EV batteries........because companies were able to lower cost by not using valuable materials in battery production (like Cobalt) - the same materials that gave the financial incentives for companies to recycle what could be recycled in the first place.

Emotional solutions to real problems are never really solutions. But at least we feel good about ourselves.

I’ve also brought up the recycling aspect in other EV threads, it’s going to be a really big problem...

Not only are we trading one type of supposed emissions related “concern” (ICE/fossil fuels) for another (EV/mining of precious materials for batteries, recycling dumps) - but currently, there’s no easy way to extinguish an EV fire at all.

The training to extinguish/battle such a fire is not there and many FD’s and EMS units don’t have the proper equipment to extinguish a fully engulfed EV, let alone if such a fire broke out at a Dealership or shop.

There was just an article a week or so ago about a Tesla that crashed and killed both driver and passenger. Upon impact it ignited. The Responding FD and EMS could not extinguish the fire and the article stated the FD had to let it burn out which took 4 hours....

So while I am interested to see automotive evolution, I don’t think going full EV is any better than the ICE platform which has been successful and around far longer. Nor do I agree with many States trying to ban sales of ICE vehicles... Its becoming more like a Dictatorship with the Govt pushing an agenda to the people, by telling us what we now can or cannot buy, while trying to entice and offer vehicle Manufacturers this or that incentive to go full EV.

I believe what we will see is EV disposal, more and more electronics issues and drain on the electric grids worldwide becoming a major problem, period. Sure things can be recycled, to a degree, but it still takes power (electricity/fuel) and emissions to do those jobs.

The other issue will be, when main EV battery pack life is depleted OR malfunctions AFTER warranties are expired, the cost to replace a main EV battery pack will exceed what people can pay AND the resale value of EV’s will be in the gutter... no one is going to want to deal with EV battery issues, let alone electrical issues OR having to pay Manufacturer XYZ to use THEIR specific charging stations.

—
I’m going to try an rather simple analogy or comparison in this example:
In simple terms, we bought a nice electric weed trimmer 2 years ago, it worked beautifully until the damn rechargeable lithium ion battery would not take a charge any more this year. I tried every method of “waking it up” or jumpering it back to life, no go. We paid $120 for the unit new 2 years ago. To replace the battery with the same lithium ion pack, a new battery from the same equipment manufacturer ranges anywhere from $80-$95 depending on who you get it from. Even to get a “fake” battery popped off from overseas on eBay, it’s still in the $60 range (and who knows if it would explode in ones face).

Looking online, we could get a brand new weed trimmer again, for now $100, plus it comes with 2 batteries. So why would I or anyone else for that matter spend $80-$95 on another lithium ion battery when I can buy a brand new trimmer with 2 batteries?

Do you see the issue, even though it’s not a car? I threw away the 2-year old weed trimmer and tossed the battery for recycling, where BOTH will end up in some form in some dump or landfill. I bought the new weed trimmer kit for $100. How many people will do the same?

Multiply the above “small” example threefold, fourfold, etc.... Take that same example and apply it to any EV automobile... People aren’t going to retain EV vehicles for 10, 12, 20 years... the batteries won’t last, especially if left to sit... and no one will pay some ridiculous amount for a new skateboard battery when they could just go buy either a used ICE vehicle OR a new/used EV...

Tell me how we’re making the planet any greener by the now additional and excessive mining of materials needed to produce the larger EV batteries for the skateboards AND then the processes needed to recycle or dispose of them later down the line.

 

[Cobra Jet]

So aside from the batteries needed to power an EV, there’s going to be excessive need for metals for the wiring of the EV not just by electrical parts and harnesses, but also the electric motor windings and cases....

Start pulling an EV’s necessary components apart and how is it any better than an ICE vehicle as far as emissions expended, earth materials needed and costs?

 

[Gregs24]

I’m just honestly curious, if you care so damn much, why the hell do you own ICE vehicles? Hypocrite much? Fall on your sword or STFU.

No. I use my ICE car (less) plus also have a plug in charged from my own solar PV, so I am doing something about it. There is no magic bullet here, just series of incremental gains. We all have to do our bit and that accumulates into something useful. It is very easy to give up something you never use or insist others do, the true altruism comes when you are prepared to give up something that matters to you for the greater good which I am doing.

Maybe you would like to explain what you will be doing to help?

In the words of your great president ' Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country '

So no, I will not STFU, and I am not a hypocrite!

Sponsored