Traction control, breaking loose, and countersteer

[15wile]

So being totally serious for once... I've seen too many incidents with Mustangs lately. And I'm starting to get a little worried, because I'm a pretty shitty driver, overall.

I leave traction control on. I don't turn it off ever. Never show off at car shows either. Also, I take it easier on corners than most. But I still break the rear end loose a lot when launching or downshifting on the straights for a little fun (it's a pony car not a granny car). If I feel the rear starting to drift, I let off the gas and keep the front wheels straight. Usually don't countersteer much, if at all. I wait for tires to bite, then go back in with power. This has never failed me. Never lost control.

Is this tempting fate, or pretty normal for everyone else?

Sponsored

 

[JohnDoe]

Then why get the v8?

 

[Sheenapple]

Then why get the v8?

I think you're implying that the EB isn't capable of doing this? Or the v6 for that matter?

As an EB owner yourself, you know you have more torque down low over the 5.0.

OP if you're a shitty driver as you say, but you know when to lift and keep the wheels pointed in the right direction; for the most part you would be okay. But I would say you're tempting fate. There's so many factors involved though. Alignment, cradle alignment, uneven tirewear, etc...

Generally when a car breaks loose in one direction the instinct is to whip the wheel the other way. Don't do that

 

[crs2879]

You can find videos on YouTube of BMWs, Ferraris, Corvettes, Porsches, etc doing the same thing. The common denominator is typically someone attempting to show-off or racing in a powerful, RWD car.....Mustangs simply catch a lot of flack because they are affordable and thus more plentiful.

 

[TruBlu16GT]

Hell, it's fun just to hang the ass end out a little just merging into traffic! It may be a heavy car, but it is still very easy to control. I've only ever had one "whoopsie" moment with mine in the 6 months I've owned it. Nothing major, I just let it get a little too sideways making a left turn through an intersection. No damage, no soiled trousers; more of an "I should have handled that better" moment.

Personally, I think a lot of people - even older, more experienced drivers need to find a vacant parking lot just after the first snowfall and practice fishtailing, counter steering and correcting. It's good practice, I do it every year.

Why? Well, here's a little story.

I have a 1970½ AMC Gremlin. 232, 3 speed stick. Today it's a little rough but I plan to fix it up. Ffor many years it was my winter car. I'd toss on some meaty winters, throw 40-odd pounds of lead in the back (I hate using sandbags, so I have lead bars) and we're good to go.

Well, one day coming home from work after a particularly cold snap, Gremlin had issues maintaining traction on a gradual hill on the highway. An uphill section of highway was pure ice. The tail kept getting away on me, so I'd slow down, counter steer and get her straight again. The pendulum effect was beginning to take effect so I downshifted into second in hopes to slow down and stop the pendulum. Bad move. The back end came around and now I'm heading into oncoming traffic - - - backwards.

I knew the road was icy, there was no way the oncoming truck was going to stop. I still had some momentum. I still had the presence of mind that I acted in a split second. If I'm going to die, I'm at least going to die trying.

Pushed in the clutch, shoved it into reverse, let out the clutch and gunned it.
Maybe I've seen the Rockford Files too many times or maybe James Garner is my guardian angel, but I pulled a Rockford right there on the highway and managed to swing the car around the right way back onto the right side of the road. I went over way too far and found myself on the shoulder but at least I was alive, out of the way and avoided an accident.

Part of driver training should maybe include accident avoidance or skid-correction. Not just covering it with a paragraph in a book, but actual practical application. Had I not been a knob and gone out every winter to have fun in an empty parking lot, I may not have lived to be able to tell this story!

With these Mustang crashes? Some accidents may be avoidable but many seem to involve a High Performance car with a Low Performance driver.

Google "viper crashes". Same story.

 

[sigintel]

Recovering from fishtail or oversteer is actually built in to the tire and suspension. .
Most oversteer accidents occur when the driver grips the wheel too much and stops the front wheels from staying aligned with direction of travel: result is driver actually makes situation worse.

If you cant find snow, just inflate rear tires to 41psi temporarily and find a wet or wet and muddy parking lot. Learn to toss rear out and then let go of wheel and gas. No bull the front wheels 'caster' in the direction of travel and vehicle returns to stable travel passively.

Push a shopping cart. Stop. Walk around 90degrees to side of cart and push on side. Watch front wheels: they caster or turn to line up with new direction of travel. Your car does this too.

So as soon as you get the rear to step out. Let go of wheel and lift off gas.
Repeat.
Then instead of letting go, just loosen grip but make wheel drag sliding thru loose grip.
Repeat.
Now play with adding in a brief input of counter steer and then let go.
Then start extending the throttle even after oversteer.
Eventually you should be able to low speed drift a figure eight.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Most of the videos I've seen of mustangs crashing at cars and coffee, the deiver understeered too late or too little and didnt let up on the gas when the rear started to step out.

holding the wheel fixed and straight wont do you any favors. Learning to gracefully steer into the skid is a good idea. in addition to the good advise in the previous post, practice looking with your eyes where you want the car to go and smoothly steering towards that point.

Either way, traction control is pretty awesome these days, eh?

 

[Dave]

When you let off, use caution. If the car is getting sideways and loses traction at a higher RPM then the engine braking from letting off is just like ripping up on the e-brake and we all know what that does, right? That's what I see happening in most of the "cars and coffee" type accidents where say, they slide left and countersteer, let off too much and end up in the ditch *on the right*.

Driving a 435 HP RWD car is not much different from driving a 150 HP RWD car in the snow. It takes practice and skill and just the right touch... And sometimes you fuck up and it costs you a lot of money.

 

[Next Phase]

I would recommend turning off traction control in a vacant parking lot and practice drifting and kicking the rear end out. I grew up in the snow belt, so we had practice every winter in our rear drive cars.... Controlling a skid is something every driver needs to master IMHO. Drifting in the snow was crazy good fun and you learned quickly that yoy can't over react / over correct. Ease off the throttle and slow steering inputs are key.

It sounds like you know your limits, which is good.

 

[wildcatgoal]

Even on a track and no traction/advance trac on, my car basically self-corrected. I mean I of course had the wheel turned accordingly but just a teeny bit off the gas and it straighted up and I was off, sometimes with a vengeance like a boss but most times I bogged it because I took too much off the top. For some people, oversteer does not illicit the correct reaction of to counter the back end. For the most part the cars steering kind of does it for you, but a lot of people just whip the wheel one direction, which swings the car out the other direction from the oversteer event and once it grips and by then they're heading straight for a crowd of idiots standing on the side of the road going too fast and having too slow of a reaction time to brake and/or turn the other way quickly.

The advice here has been to get into an empty parking lot (with no light poles to hit) and learn the car. I'd do this even with a Toyota Camry! This is great advice... when there are no cops to get in your face. That was something my parents took me out to do to learn winter driving when I lived in Illinois. They basically took me to the high school parking lot and made me lose control so I'd know how to get back in control. That is probably one of the top 10 things I learned from my parents... I've never gotten into a loss of traction-related accident in snow/ice and have actually been, numerous times, the only person making it through surprise icy patches of road with the car sliding all over the place, meanwhile there were even cop cars and bunches of other cars slid off the side of the road. But I digress...

Off to knock on some wood...

 

[CCCP1999]

My Modded C6 was much worse than the GT. You could really lose it with the run flats from a 20mph roll.

 

[NoVaGT]

I sometimes forget that different people have different abilities with their car.

Maybe try some performance driving instruction? Like a Friday At The Track that many race tracks do? Learn some car control, have some fun.

 

[Coolmanfoo]

So one thing I've been wondering is if it's easier to get the rear end to break with a manual transmission? My gt is an auto and I've TRIED to get the back end to break loose in empty parking lot and it doesnt.

I'm guessing because my rpms aren't getting high enough to send too much power to the rear causes a major loss of traction? Where as in a manual you could redline in first gear lol.

Is my thought process correct?

 

[Norm Peterson]

So being totally serious for once... I've seen too many incidents with Mustangs lately. And I'm starting to get a little worried, because I'm a pretty shitty driver, overall.

Is this tempting fate, or pretty normal for everyone else?

I'm leaning toward "tempting fate". You want to rein in the drift in the first direction, while being absolutely ready to catch the reaction spin in the opposite direction that will happen once you've stopped the initial one. Ideally, this catch the first then catch the opposite twitch becomes all but instinctive. Done without conscious thought (having to think about it takes too much time).

In the relatively few C&C/crash videos I've watched, it's been pretty consistent that the driver stays in the throttle until it's way past "too late". What I can't see is the drivers not being aware of the reactionary snap-spin the other way.

Guys - it is controllable, and it's a worthwhile skill to have to notice traction being lost as it first starts happening. And remember always that throttle modulation is key. Forget that drag-race/street challenge "gotta always have big instant response" thinking and come around to smoothly increasing throttle even when you're "playing" a bit.

Just because I have this handy. A little more than a minute in, I got just a little too greedy with the throttle coming out of the left turn just past the bridge (but watch the first minute for an idea of speed and throttle use). Watch closely for the tiny snap to the right immediately following the snap to the left getting caught.

[ame]


Norm

 

[ScottsGT]

Empty parking lot or not, law enforcement these days would love to catch someone sliding their car around in a parking lot. Wet, dry or snow they are going to protect and serve the shit out of you.
Better get a lease for the day and rope off the entrances.

Sponsored