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Track Time Limited due to High CHT

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67Fast_V

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as far as trans coolers go for automatics, which is the most effective? i have a mishimoto on order.
there is also a pwr but it is a tube/fin design. the setrab one is not plug and play so i didnt go for it. can anyone attest to the temp drop with the mishimoto? i went into limp mode at RA a few weeks ago from a trans overheat. 6r80 here.
What CHT, oil, and trans temps did you run at limp mode?

There is a big cooling thread that you can navigate to investigate all the options for the auto trans. But if you are looking for a drop-in, these are the only trans coolers I have found (maybe others, not sure).
1. Mishimoto (the one you ordered I assume)
2. CR Racing 43-00000
3. Power PWO96546

Looking at the photos of each, #3 is the best. Most surface area. But it's expensive and a 3 month leadtime. Of the remaining, hard to know which one is better. Need to run heat transfer calc.'s with known geometry or track test. However #1 is "cheap" enough and easy to install, so you can give it a shot and see how it does. Interesting to hear the results.

@GTP
On your #311 post questions, yes all those bullets are correct. The challenging aspect of locating the cooler flat in front of the condenser is the small space (8" x 24" rectangle w/ 9.25" in the middle). So that's a series 1 Setrab or a SLM design. Or either drop-ins 2) or 3) above.(not designed for high P). Also worthy of consideration is that the grill would need to be opened up to maintain flow through the radiator. Otherwise, CHT would take net hit in temp.

Also ... on the Mach 1, I found out that the 1st A10 cooler is in the standard location (between condenser and radiator). Looks identical as the GT A10 cooler from a top view. The 2nd A10 cooler is located in the right side "cheek" per Ford. Dumps hot exit flow into the wheel well. Yet to find any pics of the cooler.
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GTP

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What CHT, oil, and trans temps did you run at limp mode?

There is a big cooling thread that you can navigate to investigate all the options for the auto trans. But if you are looking for a drop-in, these are the only trans coolers I have found (maybe others, not sure).
1. Mishimoto (the one you ordered I assume)
2. CR Racing 43-00000
3. Power PWO96546

Looking at the photos of each, #3 is the best. Most surface area. But it's expensive and a 3 month leadtime. Of the remaining, hard to know which one is better. Need to run heat transfer calc.'s with known geometry or track test. However #1 is "cheap" enough and easy to install, so you can give it a shot and see how it does. Interesting to hear the results.

@GTP
On your #311 post questions, yes all those bullets are correct. The challenging aspect of locating the cooler flat in front of the condenser is the small space (8" x 24" rectangle w/ 9.25" in the middle). So that's a series 1 Setrab or a SLM design. Or either drop-ins 2) or 3) above. Also worthy of consideration is that the grill would need to be opened up to maintain flow through the radiator. Otherwise, CHT would take net hit in temp.

Also ... on the Mach 1, I found out that the 1st A10 cooler is in the standard location (between condenser and radiator). Looks identical as the GT A10 cooler from a top view. The 2nd A10 cooler is located in the right side "cheek" per Ford. Dumps hot exit flow into the wheel well. Yet to find any pics of the cooler.
@67Fast_V this is your thread, and you are doing a good job driving it forward.
I really want to do the cooling mods once, with success, and be done with it. But so far I have my doubts that I can accomplish all those things.

I spent 9 hours in 99F heat today investigating the situation. I removed the front bumper, and studied how the condenser and trans cooler mount in there. What a pain to manipulate either of those given the OEM "clever" design methods.

My car guru friend came over to inspect things, too, and we discussed the temp challenge and possible solutions. We decided that a Setrab SLM mounted low and in front of the condenser is the easiest config to implement because it leaves the OEM trans and AC coolers intact.

The SLM 52-12965-01, 528COMF-15-2P is not as big as a 948 or 960, but it is still rated at 49-71kBTU. It also has convenient port location options for the plumbing.

We also both wondered if the oil/water cooler can be left intact, and just a sandwich plate put over that.

We concluded if this still wasn't enough cooling to run hard for 20-30 minutes straight (and I have my doubts more than he did), then perhaps we can repurpose it for the trans cooling, and install an even bigger oil HX between the condenser and radiator at a later time.

20220705_125653.jpg
 
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thornclaw

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cht was 230
trans temp was 240
i didnt check oil temp
diff is traction loc with 3.15 final drive so im pretty sure that didnt overheat.
its a 2015 so no diff temp sensor
plan on putting in pp radiator.
not sure what pumps trans fluid thru cooler but i imagine if you daisy chain two coolers the resistance would slow the flow down and may actually increase trans temps. also i suspect you could have a trans cooler that was so big it defeats itself due to slower flow which is why i was hoping someone had real world results on aforementioned coolers
 
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67Fast_V

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@67Fast_V this is your thread, and you are doing a good job driving it forward.
I really want to do the cooling mods once, with success, and be done with it. But so far I have my doubts that I can accomplish all those things.

I spent 9 hours in 99F heat today investigating the situation. I removed the front bumper, and studied how the condenser and trans cooler mount in there. What a pain to manipulate either of those given the OEM "clever" design methods.

My car guru friend came over to inspect things, too, and we discussed the temp challenge and possible solutions. We decided that a Setrab SLM mounted low and in front of the condenser is the easiest config to implement because it leaves the OEM trans and AC coolers intact.

The SLM 52-12965-01, 528COMF-15-2P is not as big as a 948 or 960, but it is still rated at 49-71kBTU. It also has convenient port location options for the plumbing.

We also both wondered if the oil/water cooler can be left intact, and just a sandwich plate put over that.

We concluded if this still wasn't enough cooling to run hard for 20-30 minutes straight (and I have my doubts more than he did), then perhaps we can repurpose it for the trans cooling, and install an even bigger oil HX between the condenser and radiator at a later time.

20220705_125653.jpg
Thanks GTP👍 . Just a few quick thoughts, its a bit late in the day. If you can get all the temps to behave on the 1st shot, you would be in very select company. Not many or if any have done that on a dual purpose street/track car hammer on the track. But that's a great goal and I hope you succeed.

On your setrab oil cooler brain storming, unfortunately I don't know anything about those 2 coolers but ... would not suggest a 2 pass cooler. Too much dP. You should pay very close attention to this design parameter... and minimize. On the sandwiching a plate and retaining the stock oil cooler (water to oil) assembly, the other folks can chime in. Have not had mine off to understand the system fully.

As mentioned earlier, I have not done much research on the best oil cooling set-up cus I'm trying to get by stock. I think I can make it work by sealing+grill. All my data and analysis says yes on CHT & oil, but I won't be able to prove it until mid to late Aug (next track event). Trans temp is uncertain, though.

There is a lot to talk about here. Easier to chat on the phone. Send me a PM and we can chat if you would like. What might be interesting is a group Zoom or Teams meeting and we all can get together to discuss. If someone sets it up, I will join. Cheers.
 

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...
If you can get all the temps [on a dual purpose street/track car ]to behave on the 1st shot, you would be in very select company.
...

I have not done much research on the best oil cooling set-up cus I'm trying to get by stock. I think I can make it work by sealing+grill. All my data and analysis says yes on CHT & oil, but I won't be able to prove it until mid to late Aug (next track event). Trans temp is uncertain, though.
...
You seem to be contradicting yourself, haha. I.e. getting a dual-purpose GT-PP car to behave without adding auxiliary coolers.
But that's a great goal and I hope you succeed. (Just poking fun.)

Back to serious ...
First I thought I would have to cool the diff. Exhaust wrap fixed that, no cooler needed. Temp stickers served as a confirmation of the onboard readout.

Then I thought the trans would need cooling help. So far my trans stays steady at 225F.

But as others report, it is CHT that is the problem for me.

20220705_151248.jpg
 
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67Fast_V

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You seem to be contradicting yourself, haha. I.e. getting a dual-purpose GT-PP car to behave without adding auxiliary coolers.
But that's a great goal and I hope you succeed. (Just poking fun.)

Back to serious ...
First I thought I would have to cool the diff. Exhaust wrap fixed that, no cooler needed. Temp stickers served as a confirmation of the onboard readout.

Then I thought the trans would need cooling help. So far my trans stays steady at 225F.

But as others report, it is CHT that is the problem for me.

20220705_151248.jpg
:) (dual purpose w/ no extra coolers). I agree that does sound a bit "impossible" on the surface ... but I guess we'll see in Aug. I will plot the data point on my graph and send it out, so all can tell me I should learn how to "calculate" 😂.

Wrap+fluid helps the diff amazingly. I was shocked. Like 50F worth. But I can only run 3 sessions. 4th is too hot. So need to use Flyhalf's between session cooling technique cus don't want to add weight (cooler, lines, fan, etc) to this car.

My trans temp is similar (225F ish), but increasing. This one makes me nervous cus it's borderline for longer sessions to Flyhalf's recommendations. The grill mod coming will help but not sure it's enough. But yes, CHT is the bigger issue.

On your oil cooling desire, I would take a look at the 2018 & up Mishimoto oil kit. Good price. But I would suggest to put the cooler flat in front of the condenser (not in the "as designed" loc). Make yourself some brackets, etc. Not super hard but work. Open the grill for the extra flow. Just not sure that 12 row cooler is enough for the oil, though. Should compare it to other HX's (geometry to geometry) and talk to Mishmoto. But this will most certainly help CHT.

@thornclaw, I'm surprised that your CHT isn't higher than 230F, especially w/ std small GT radiator. I would guess that you have a big grill. But 240F trans is sporty. Your mishimoto should help a lot. Check the Big Fat Cooling thread. Maybe someone has tried it already. On the water pump thought, the CHT problem is on the air side. So adding water flow won't help much.
 

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@thornclaw
I'm surprised that your CHT isn't higher than 230F, especially w/ std small GT radiator. I would guess that you have a big grill. But 240F trans is sporty. Your mishimoto should help a lot. Check the Big Fat Cooling thread. Maybe someone has tried it already. On the water pump thought, the CHT problem is on the air side. So adding water flow won't help much.
Yeah I wondered if thornclaw posted his temps reversed.
 

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here is pic of cht gauge. as you can see it goes up to 340. where is the actual danger point?

C997CC68-3B07-4953-8D88-CB6266BD6DAE.jpeg
 

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We also both wondered if the oil/water cooler can be left intact, and just a sandwich plate put over that.
Wondering the same thing here as I piece together a kit.
 

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Wondering the same thing here as I piece together a kit.
I did not try to fit mine up that way but it should mount up just fine, but as others have said removing the factory water to oil cooler, and getting it on its own air to oil cooler will lower your water temps since you will now not have 270deg oil heating up the water.
 
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67Fast_V

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here is pic of cht gauge. as you can see it goes up to 340. where is the actual danger point?

C997CC68-3B07-4953-8D88-CB6266BD6DAE.jpeg
Danger depends on who you ask. Everyone has an opinion. My target is 235F or below. But I have run 250F for short periods. The ECU pull back limit for CHT appears to be 257F for my stock tune (244+13). But the calculated oil temps pull the raines back 1st, which is around the CHT 240-242F mark for me. Now why Ford decided not to put a yellow or red zone(s) on the CHT gauge... I have no idea. It doesn't seem too hard😉 .
 

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I did not try to fit mine up that way but it should mount up just fine, but as others have said removing the factory water to oil cooler, and getting it on its own air to oil cooler will lower your water temps since you will now not have 270deg oil heating up the water.
Well that answered that. Thank you!
 

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here is pic of cht gauge. as you can see it goes up to 340. where is the actual danger point?
When racing Ford 4-valve V-8 engines professionally, the target engine coolant temp is 185* F. Cylinder head temp will be marginally (5-10*) higher during transients than coolant temp, but it will be approaching the same readings at steady state. The temps that people are comfortable running on a track day would destroy a racing engine. My guess is that it doesn't do street engines any favors, either.
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