Track Time Limited due to High CHT

[GTP]

Glad it makes sense and is helpful. On the tips for sealing, go to post #96. That should get you started. The only thing I would change is the part A = 50% and part B is 50%. After I sealed the front and instrumented the system, it turned out that the front leaks are bigger than I originally thought. So instead of 30% of the total leak, it's more like 50%. To complete A+B, is 2 days. It's very tedious and takes time. There are leaks all over this system.

As far as the length of this thread, yes, I agree it's very long. I started in Oct 2021 with a question cus I was clueless on how a brand new GT w/ PP1 package could overheat really in only 3 mins on the track. Now 8 months later, there are answers.

After some advice from the Forum, inspections of the OEM cooling system, analysis, mods, and track time, I now have the cause and solution ... which is outline in the simplest possible form in post #278. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Took 8 months to have enough data, mod time, and analysis to be able to make that chart ... and a lot of interesting discussion and additional data from other members along the way in this thread.

So whoever is reading this now and wants the bottom line (cause & solution for post 1), go to post #278. On long threads, I usually start at the end and back up.

Let me add this ... are there other solutions .... yes, absolutely. But none more effective in my opinion from a cost, weight, and simplicity perspective for the non-competition track focus. Now the wheel to wheel guys, they will need more than post #278.

On your temps, they don't look too bad. 240F CHT. But as you hammer it and as ambient changes, they will be increasing. Good Luck and have fun driving the car. I wanted that gauge cluster but couldn't afford. Cudos. Cheers.

Please create, and update as needed, a TLDR header at the top of your post #1, and then refer to the "answer posts", eg 96 & 278 etc.

I am on MPS4 275s square and so far that's enough fun for me. I'm an intermediate driver. I love the big track mode display because I glance at the road speed on corner entry and exit as I build up speed. Then glance at the 3 middle gauges on the straight. (Or not, as there's nothing I can do other than slow down.) I also just made an adapter to flip my rear camera facing forward so that I can review gear, rpm, and speed around the track.

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[NeverSatisfied]

Afternoon sessions at road atlanta. Low to mid 90s ambient and sunny.

50 row series 6 Setrab oil cooler.
Mishimoto radiator pretty well sealed
Raceloovers
Gutted shroud
Mostly distilled and water wetter

Running fresh 305 RS4s on bilsteins and bmr handling springs

After 20 min got calculated oil to hit warm and derate. CHT 235-240

Actual oil temp of 275
Actual ECT in block 210-215

Crazy! I’ll make another attempt and better sealing the inlet to radiator but I’m thinking this just may be a “deal with it” problem as most the time I’m running in cooler temps in the northeast and it only gets there later in the sessions when I’m really caning it.

 

[67Fast_V]

Afternoon sessions at road atlanta. Low to mid 90s ambient and sunny.

50 row series 6 Setrab oil cooler.
Mishimoto radiator pretty well sealed
Raceloovers
Gutted shroud
Mostly distilled and water wetter

Running fresh 305 RS4s on bilsteins and bmr handling springs

After 20 min got calculated oil to hit warm and derate. CHT 235-240

Actual oil temp of 275
Actual ECT in block 210-215

Crazy! I’ll make another attempt and better sealing the inlet to radiator but I’m thinking this just may be a “deal with it” problem as most the time I’m running in cooler temps in the northeast and it only gets there later in the sessions when I’m really caning it.

Thanks for the update. It's better than before the mods, so progress made . Looks like your measured oil temp is close to the calculated. Maybe 5F lower or a bit more. Your CHT data point plots right on the "98% sealed" curve.

If you don't find any significant remaining radiator perimeter leaks, then would suggest opening the grille or buy aftermarket set. Or just maybe the upper section replacement. $200-$250. This will drop you to the lower curve on the #278 chart and then you should be good on the hot days and making a little more power on the cooler days.

Would also suggest that you take a look at the oil cooler sealing to insure minimal air can get to the back side w/o going through the cooler. I would have expected lower oil temps w/ that 50 row. It's hard to cool oil w/ air ... but that's a very big HX. Thanks for sharing and good luck with the fine tuning mods. Cheers.

 

[tosha]

Afternoon sessions at road atlanta. Low to mid 90s ambient and sunny.

50 row series 6 Setrab oil cooler.
Mishimoto radiator pretty well sealed
Raceloovers
Gutted shroud
Mostly distilled and water wetter

Running fresh 305 RS4s on bilsteins and bmr handling springs

After 20 min got calculated oil to hit warm and derate. CHT 235-240

Actual oil temp of 275
Actual ECT in block 210-215

Crazy! I’ll make another attempt and better sealing the inlet to radiator but I’m thinking this just may be a “deal with it” problem as most the time I’m running in cooler temps in the northeast and it only gets there later in the sessions when I’m really caning it.

Yeah, pretty crazy given all the mods. What were your shifting points? Is it 10/10 type of driving? Have you thought of adding washer nozzles and spray the rads stacks when it gets really hot?

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

Afternoon sessions at road atlanta. Low to mid 90s ambient and sunny.

50 row series 6 Setrab oil cooler.
Mishimoto radiator pretty well sealed
Raceloovers
Gutted shroud
Mostly distilled and water wetter

Running fresh 305 RS4s on bilsteins and bmr handling springs

After 20 min got calculated oil to hit warm and derate. CHT 235-240

Actual oil temp of 275
Actual ECT in block 210-215

Crazy! I’ll make another attempt and better sealing the inlet to radiator but I’m thinking this just may be a “deal with it” problem as most the time I’m running in cooler temps in the northeast and it only gets there later in the sessions when I’m really caning it.

And did you fill the coolant with an air lift?

 

[NeverSatisfied]

Yeah, pretty crazy given all the mods. What were your shifting points? Is it 10/10 type of driving? Have you thought of adding washer nozzles and spray the rads stacks when it gets really hot?

I'd call it 9.5/10ths driving--I'm short shifting 3-4 at 6.5k in some sections as I've found that helps keep the heat down. Other sections I'm to the rev limiter. Mines a base GT so I'm running 3.55 where I'd assume most folks are running 3.73 so that's another variable int he mix.

I think I'm done other than some more sealing the inlet and maybe a grill replacement to see what happens.

Sunday was overcast, 90-93F, and oil stayed 260, ECT 210, no limp mode driving 25 min sessions albeit short shifting at some points.

Not to say I'm the fastest driver, but most HPDE drivers would get in my car and find they could lap at 100% of their capability in any temp sub 100F without issue. Even for TT you can get in this car and crank out 4-5 absolute flyers without issue.

 

[GTP]

I'd call it 9.5/10ths driving--I'm short shifting 3-4 at 6.5k in some sections as I've found that helps keep the heat down. Other sections I'm to the rev limiter. Mines a base GT so I'm running 3.55 where I'd assume most folks are running 3.73 so that's another variable int he mix.

I think I'm done other than some more sealing the inlet and maybe a grill replacement to see what happens.

Sunday was overcast, 90-93F, and oil stayed 260, ECT 210, no limp mode driving 25 min sessions albeit short shifting at some points.

Not to say I'm the fastest driver, but most HPDE drivers would get in my car and find they could lap at 100% of their capability in any temp sub 100F without issue. Even for TT you can get in this car and crank out 4-5 absolute flyers without issue.

Matt,
So would you say that CHT/Oil temp is under control in your car due to 1) Setrab oil cooler, 2) radiator sealing, and 3) hood venting?

There are so many threads/posts now that is hard to keep everything straight. Do you have a write-up, pics, or more info on your Setrab build? I.e. links to current posts. Thanks.

I really want to survive 20min sessions and preferably without cutting into any bodywork.

 

[DougS550]

Engine cooling efficiency, IE Radiator maximum cooling efficiency/capability, Proper Air Flow across the radiator, airflow across the engine compartment and Venting that air out (Efficiently) ETC are limiting factors to maintaining good cooling tempuatures. The thermostat can only reduce the coolant temperature to the limits of the engine cooling system cooling capabilities. More efficient radiators, Efficiently, Maximizing airflow across the radiator, and airflow into your engine compartment and the efficient exiting of the airflow out of the engine compartment, Reducing heat from the headers ETC is the only way to make your cooling system more capable for keeping CHT within limits or where you need to have them operate at. I don't think you mentioned High Oil Temp or High Head Temperatures?
Good Luck

 

[GTP]

There's a lot of smart people in this thread, so let me ask this - aside from the steep cost, any thoughts on this Roush kit https://www.roushperformance.com/2018-2021-roush-supercharged-max-cooling-upgrade.html and maybe even repurposing one of the radiators from supercharger cooling into engine oil cooler? The % numbers they provide don't seem to be huge, but then it's whole new air flow, avoid stacking rads in front of each other, and aligned with mach 1 extra cooling solution. Thoughts?

I read over the instructions for the Roush Max Cooling Kit again, and called them again. The drivers side additional cooler taps into the main coolant system and is not an auxiliary oil cooler.

From the web page:

• +28% Engine Cooling Capacity (More surface area and radiator volume) [drivers side water cooler]
• +22% Supercharger Cooling Capacity [passenger side water cooler]
• Heat extracting fender vents reduce under the hood temperatures by 14%

The drivers side radiator looks to be ~40% as large as the main radiator. Is this sufficient or superior compared to adding an auxiliary oil-to-air cooler?

 

[tosha]

Sunday was overcast, 90-93F, and oil stayed 260, ECT 210, no limp mode driving 25 min sessions albeit short shifting at some points.

Not to say I'm the fastest driver, but most HPDE drivers would get in my car and find they could lap at 100% of their capability in any temp sub 100F without issue. Even for TT you can get in this car and crank out 4-5 absolute flyers without issue.

thanks for sharing, it seems that you have a solid build now. as long as these temps are consistent, it's a great result.

 

[tosha]

I read over the instructions for the Roush Max Cooling Kit again, and called them again. The drivers side additional cooler taps into the main coolant system and is not an auxiliary oil cooler.

From the web page:

• +28% Engine Cooling Capacity (More surface area and radiator volume) [drivers side water cooler]
• +22% Supercharger Cooling Capacity [passenger side water cooler]
• Heat extracting fender vents reduce under the hood temperatures by 14%

The drivers side radiator looks to be ~40% as large as the main radiator. Is this sufficient or superior compared to adding an auxiliary oil-to-air cooler?

yes, there is a pretty detailed video on the installation, that helps make it pretty clear on what taps where: 2018-2022 Mustang Install | Roush Max Cooling Upgrade Kit - YouTube

one of the additional rads is tapping into engine coolant system, which is great for overall cooling. but the second one taps into supercharger cooling circuit, which in my understanding was done to keep drag strip folks happier and is far less necessary for road course application. So, technically, one could repurpose the supercharger cooling side and mount a dedicated engine oil cooler instead. though, it would be a complete custom made solution and it might be just easier to get a Mach 1 oil cooler kit from a dealership.. the problem is that a different bumper or permanent cutouts in existing one would still be necessary.

 

[NeverSatisfied]

Matt,
So would you say that CHT/Oil temp is under control in your car due to 1) Setrab oil cooler, 2) radiator sealing, and 3) hood venting?

There are so many threads/posts now that is hard to keep everything straight. Do you have a write-up, pics, or more info on your Setrab build? I.e. links to current posts. Thanks.

I really want to survive 20min sessions and preferably without cutting into any bodywork.

I haven't found any magic solution to keeping these cars cool. I found it takes a combo of everything I've done. And I don't think it's unique to my '21 GT base. I was working through the same problems on my '19 PP2--I just never solved it before I sold that car.

The only thing I'd do different now is go with a Setrab series 9 50 row instead of a series 6. I'm pretty sure I could get it to fit. I'll take some pictures next time I pull the bumper off.

 

[tosha]

I haven't found any magic solution to keeping these cars cool. I found it takes a combo of everything I've done. And I don't think it's unique to my '21 GT base. I was working through the same problems on my '19 PP2--I just never solved it before I sold that car.

The only thing I'd do different now is go with a Setrab series 9 50 row instead of a series 6. I'm pretty sure I could get it to fit. I'll take some pictures next time I pull the bumper off.

Do you have a list of parts and numbers/links necessary for Setrab oil cooler install by any chance? I haven't searched extensively but I don't think there is a kit readily available.

 

[NeverSatisfied]

Do you have a list of parts and numbers/links necessary for Setrab oil cooler install by any chance? I haven't searched extensively but I don't think there is a kit readily available.

All Setrab/Susa parts...

Series 6 50 row (I'd buy the series 9 50 Row if I were to do it again)
Setrab Series 6 mounting plates
M22 O-ring to -10AN 90's at the cooler
M22 O-ring to -10AN 45's at the sandwich plate
-10AN flex hose from improved racing
Setrab sandwich plate w/ T-stat stacked on top of a Setrab spacer plate with 2 fittings for sensors.

-10AN hose separators and cushioned hose clamps from Vibrant Performance to help with the routing.

Aluminum and hardware from Lowes to mount the cooler in front of the condenser.

 

[nbjeeptj]

All Setrab/Susa parts...

Series 6 50 row (I'd buy the series 9 50 Row if I were to do it again)
Setrab Series 6 mounting plates
M22 O-ring to -10AN 90's at the cooler
M22 O-ring to -10AN 45's at the sandwich plate
-10AN flex hose from improved racing
Setrab sandwich plate w/ T-stat stacked on top of a Setrab spacer plate with 2 fittings for sensors.

-10AN hose separators and cushioned hose clamps from Vibrant Performance to help with the routing.

Aluminum and hardware from Lowes to mount the cooler in front of the condenser.

For my setup it is was a all in one kind of deal once you know what to buy. The Watson racing radiator close out seals off the supply side of the radiator better than any home brew solution I could have come up with. It also is a mount for a series 9 60 row oil cooler, which seams to be the right size if you just don't want to worry about oil temp again. Mine was only 232 deg while pounding the hell out of it driving at least 9.5/10. The Watson set up works with any of the radiators that mount in factory location, mine just happens to be the same as NeverSatisfied's with the mishismoto. Then just put race louvers in the hood. For my setup you do have to get rid of the AC condenser coil but in my case it was not a huge deal as a track only car, and I took the compressor with it and lost a few pounds. Look back in this thread I have some pictures as I was installing it all. So for the quick list of parts it would be as follows:

Watson racing radiator close out kit

race louvers (I did the center and sides but probably could have just done center)

Radiator (You chose) mine was mishimoto

Oil cooler Setrab series 9 60 row or equivalent by Earls (mine is Earls due to availability)

Mishimoto oil filter sandwich adaptor ( mine was the thermostat controlled unit)

30 deg -12an hose end fitting for the filter plate side. I had to get mishimoto -10an fittings then straight adaptors to get to -12an

6' of -12an hose

-12an fitting to go in the oil cooler

one -12an hose end straight

one -12an 90deg hose end

In my case I also added gauges on the oil and coolant since the computer does not know what they really are.

I think at this point there is enough people that have tested this combo out to say that for sure if you do this handfull of things you can keep it cool, and there are options from complete fabricate it yourself to buying mostly ready made options.

If any one needs it I can get, add the part numbers to the list of parts, just let me know and I will do that.

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