Time to upgrade to a Fuel system, here is what I’m considering.

[Burgo]

My Procharged D1x needs more fuel. When i got it installed there was no money in my budget to get a fuel system. So I went with a bap. I have the money now and considering a few kits. I will not be using e-85 because there’s no stations in my area. So 93 pump and race gas for track events. My budget for this kit is $1500. Im looking at the Sai li kit , the lethal level 1 kit, i also looked at vmp’s budget kit but its $1600. Ive been hearing that the walbro 465 pumps that come with 2 of those kits, burn up over time, is this true? The Sai li kit uses twin gt-500 pumps but also uses your own fuel lines. I know that kit is limited to 900 wheel on pump and thats fine.
links:

https://www.lethalperformance.com/l...tang-gt-level-1-return-style-fuel-system.html

https://www.vmpperformance.com/VMP-Plug-and-Play-Return-Style-Fuel-System

https://www.lethalperformance.com/s...n-style-fuel-system-2011-2019-mustang-gt.html

Or
https://www.kpmfuelsystems.com.au/product/streetfighter-mustang-900hp-in-tank-fuel-module/

https://www.kpmmotorsport.com.au/kpm-news/streetfighter-1250hp-mustang-gt-in-tank-fuel-module/

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[Dominant1]

Or
https://www.kpmfuelsystems.com.au/product/streetfighter-mustang-900hp-in-tank-fuel-module/

https://www.kpmmotorsport.com.au/kpm-news/streetfighter-1250hp-mustang-gt-in-tank-fuel-module/

those 2 look cool but I already bought a Fore double pump system from beefcake, which would have been installed by now but I'm having my 6r80 built for 1000 hp capability.

 

[Fissy]

Or
https://www.kpmfuelsystems.com.au/product/streetfighter-mustang-900hp-in-tank-fuel-module/

https://www.kpmmotorsport.com.au/kpm-news/streetfighter-1250hp-mustang-gt-in-tank-fuel-module/

Anyone have any feedback on using these? I'm looking to go E85 on my gen 2 coyote with a roush phase 2.

 

[Angrey]

Anyone have any feedback on using these? I'm looking to go E85 on my gen 2 coyote with a roush phase 2.

Interesting, but I'd like to see what fuel pumps they're using. And like discussed before, 1500 hp (without details) is probably 1500 Naturally Aspirated, Gasoline. An equivalent flow on E-85 (supercharged) would be about 1025 (BHP) so about 900 rwhp through a typical manual trans. Pretty good, but not earth shattering.

I like that they maintain everything OEM setup compatible (including the jet syphon(s). I'd have to check the USD/AUS conversion rate, but with importing I'm betting you could do this yourself with a pair of DW400's and a slightly modified GT350 bucket or their X5 and still land around the same price.

 

[Angrey]

And the claim that it can maintain fuel at any conditions and any fuel level is pretty dubious, considering that jet syphoning is very limited (even with upgraded syphons) and the pump bucket is pretty small. 700 l/h+ liters going out and roughly 100 l/h coming (from jet syphons) in gives you approximately 6 seconds of full tilt boogie until the bucket is sucked down (assuming a liter or so of net volume inside the bucket).

Again, if their claims are based on N/A - gasoline, that changes.

 

[illtal]

And the claim that it can maintain fuel at any conditions and any fuel level is pretty dubious, considering that jet syphoning is very limited (even with upgraded syphons) and the pump bucket is pretty small. 700 l/h+ liters going out and roughly 100 l/h coming (from jet syphons) in gives you approximately 6 seconds of full tilt boogie until the bucket is sucked down (assuming a liter or so of net volume inside the bucket).

Again, if their claims are based on N/A - gasoline, that changes.

You also forget that the return line fuel is going in there. It's actually a lot more than 6 seconds.

 

[Angrey]

You also forget that the return line fuel is going in there. It's actually a lot more than 6 seconds.

No I didn't, that system is returnless. And a return system is a net zero effect, it's just moving fuel to the front and back to the rear back into the bucket. So whatever the flow rates are, you have to add the excess/unnecessary return (under conditions less than 100% full pump demand). At 100% demand, in ideal conditions where the engine is consuming 100% of the fuel sent, the bucket will only last as long as the differential between flow into it (from the syphons) and flow out of it (to the engine).

 

[illtal]

Anyone have any feedback on using these? I'm looking to go E85 on my gen 2 coyote with a roush phase 2.

@ the current conversion rate, I would just use the DW setup. That way you could control the pump type, and you still can use a bap if you really need it to achieve the desired flow rate.

No I didn't, that system is returnless. And a return system is a net zero effect, it's just moving fuel to the front and back to the rear back into the bucket. So whatever the flow rates are, you have to add the excess/unnecessary return (under conditions less than 100% full pump demand). At 100% demand, in ideal conditions where the engine is consuming 100% of the fuel sent, the bucket will only last as long as the differential between flow into it (from the syphons) and flow out of it (to the engine).

I thought it was a return system.

But there is a return system up there too...

No one would run a 100% system.... you can forget that calculation and that logic. It's not simply just moving fuel from front to back, that fuel is getting heated and passing through lines, and a regulator and getting returned. This has an effect of efficiency. It also is not a net 0, some of that fuel is invariably getting used through the injectors, so the return would be less that what went out. But what is returned is going directly back into the bucket which does help with a temporary surge/lean condition.

There would be no need to upgrade outside of a BAP if everyone followed the aforementioned logic. The need for head room is REAL. Without it one hiccup would lead to a blown engine.
Just glancing at any Fuel flow calculator just to get a rough estimate, one could easily ascertain that running two of the DW400 or two of the Ti/Walbro 267/274 full time would be overkill for anything under like 1500 at the crank (again an ideal condition; even on the E). Coincidentally, Lund likes two of them ran all the time.

But we know that's not a real world number, there are always pumping losses associated with a real world applications. So what I'm saying is there will ALWAYS be a return in a return style system. 100% of the fuel sent up will not ever get expended. Also following that previous logic, PWM systems would not exist either.

 

[Angrey]

@ the current conversion rate, I would just use the DW setup. That way you could control the pump type, and you still can use a bap if you really need it to achieve the desired flow rate.


I thought it was a return system.

But there is a return system up there too...

No one would run a 100% system.... you can forget that calculation and that logic. It's not simply just moving fuel from front to back, that fuel is getting heated and passing through lines, and a regulator and getting returned. This has an effect of efficiency. It also is not a net 0, some of that fuel is invariably getting used through the injectors, so the return would be less that what went out. But what is returned is going directly back into the bucket which does help with a temporary surge/lean condition.

There would be no need to upgrade outside of a BAP if everyone followed the aforementioned logic. The need for head room is REAL. Without it one hiccup would lead to a blown engine.
Just glancing at any Fuel flow calculator just to get a rough estimate, one could easily ascertain that running two of the DW400 or two of the Ti/Walbro 267/274 full time would be overkill for anything under like 1500 at the crank (again an ideal condition; even on the E). Coincidentally, Lund likes two of them ran all the time.

But we know that's not a real world number, there are always pumping losses associated with a real world applications. So what I'm saying is there will ALWAYS be a return in a return style system. 100% of the fuel sent up will not ever get expended. Also following that previous logic, PWM systems would not exist either.

You're not quite understanding.

For a max HP discussion, if the pump can pumps can send say 700 lph at the desired pressure (which equates to say 900 rwhp with a blower on E85), then the theoretical consumption matches 100% of the flow, there's zero return to send back, the motor is consuming it all. Under WOT and even under less than theoretical max conditions the return line is net zero. That means if the engine needs 700 for use and your pump is capable of flowing more, anything sent back has to be sent to the motor first. So let's say you're sending BACK 100 lph and the motor is consuming 700 lph, that means the pumps have to send 800 lph. If it's 200 lph return, it's 900. Whatever you return just gets added to the required load going out. The only new fuel going into the bucket/equation is from the syphon from the other saddle and any freeflow into the bucket if it's submerged.

Under certain conditions, if you're less than a 1/2 tank, and you make a left turn hard enough, all or most of the fuel moves over to the passive saddle, leaving the primary bucket naked and no longer submerged.

In that condition and a WOT, the pumps are sucking down fuel at a very high rate (to feed the motor AND return in your example). That means it's going out faster than it's coming in.

Radium estimates their high flow syphon draws about 40 lph. Let's assume 2 of those running at MAX value, so let's just say 100 lph (which is generous). That now means the deficit is 600 lph.

If you add more return flow, it just adds to the deficit (outflow) it's a net wash. The more return flow, the more that has to be added to the outflow.

At 600 lph deficit, that's 10 liters per minute. If the bucket is a net liter (subtracting the volume of the pumps and assemblies) again that's very generous, that means at a 10 liter/minute deficit, you're going to suck the bucket dry in about 6 seconds.

Now, we all know the motor doesn't consume max value except at peak hp (even on a long WOT rip). So the deficit will be less along the pull but increasing to max value.

Radium has already done all this brain damage for their surge tank setups, and they recommend that the inflow (not including return flow) from a lift pump (or in this case the syphons) needs to be about 50% of max pump flow, otherwise under various throttle use it can result in a starved surge tank. When you lift off the throttle and your consumption drops below the lift value it refills the bucket/surge tank. When you mash again it draws down. They recommend at least 50% of max pump flow to eliminate possibility of dry pumps (under most uses/conditions).

The return feed wets the pump but also increases the flow required above motor consumption.

Or put plainly, if you return a liter, you must first send a liter (plus what the motor will eat) so the return line is a net wash

 

[MyFirst5.0]

any update on the kit you plan on developing? currently on a vmp gen3 looking for 800wheel since i'll be out of injector and id be happy with 800

And the claim that it can maintain fuel at any conditions and any fuel level is pretty dubious, considering that jet syphoning is very limited (even with upgraded syphons) and the pump bucket is pretty small. 700 l/h+ liters going out and roughly 100 l/h coming (from jet syphons) in gives you approximately 6 seconds of full tilt boogie until the bucket is sucked down (assuming a liter or so of net volume inside the bucket).

Again, if their claims are based on N/A - gasoline, that changes.

 

[Angrey]

any update on the kit you plan on developing? currently on a vmp gen3 looking for 800wheel since i'll be out of injector and id be happy with 800

Parts order on Labor day weekend. Write up, photos, videos, etc, to come shortly after. My cash flow has been tied up in other go fast stuff and the fuel system is one of the last components.

I've made some developments and I'm gonna try something a that's been proven in another car/make but I have yet to see in a mustang. I had gone down the spare tire well fuel cell with internal surge tank path, but came up with a slightly more elegant solution. I'll finalize the build/budget sheet in the next couple of weeks, I've just revised it so many times I'm wore out from it.

should end up being excellent to pretty good in all aspects (fuel delivery, efficiency, use in all or most conditions, maintains OEM functionality and stays hidden, etc).

 

[Superman15]

Just a random fyi for the thread.. Roadheavers has their dual gt350 pumps return fuel systems back in stock. No clue how many he has in. Dropping mine off tomoro for install.

 

[Gregory347]

Just a random fyi for the thread.. Roadheavers has their dual gt350 pumps return fuel systems back in stock. No clue how many he has in. Dropping mine off tomoro for install.

Any update available.... curious as to how you like this fuel system...

 

[Dominant1]

Any update available.... curious as to how you like this fuel system...

Haven’t had mine installed yet because i needed to upgrade my 6r80. I got an exedy stage2 build with billet shaft by Brett LaSala. My car was down 6 weeks for that, I just got it back two weeks ago. My tuners shop is mobbed with projects so i told him i will wait till late October for the Fore double pump Fuel system install.

 

[Superman15]

Any update available.... curious as to how you like this fuel system...

So far so good. When I got the fuel system I also got headers and a tune. Feels like a completely different car. Feels very powerful.

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