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The gripe thread (Mach 1 vs GT350, GT, etc)

Atlas1

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why the hell not? Is Ford Engine slacking off, while their GM and German counterparts actually DO spend the time and effort to get a engine RIGHT? (not to say they havnt' f'ked up hear and there). The Coyote has 15 years of so-called "development" behind it. It should be as reliable as a M1 tank (ok, probably not a good comparison - I don't know the metrics on that powerplant)

Oiling issues on Cyl 7/8? Heat issues on Cyl 7/8? What the hell has Ford been playing at for over a decade?
actual track miles? i don't mean someone with 50k miles that does a couple events a year. 50k miles on track being pushed to the limit. i do not believe a voodoo on average will make it that long without needing to be freshened up. to be fair, i would not expect the coyote to do it either. that is an incredible amount of use that virtually no one is going to reach.
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shogun32

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that is an incredible amount of use that virtually no one is going to reach.
but GM and Dodge spent the effort to get their engines such that they CAN be used reliably on track. What's wrong at Ford HQ? Freshening up is one thing and to be expected. But catastrophic failure is NOT acceptable. And it appears it is happening WAY beyond the reasonable.

@luc what's the grenade interval been on the engine, trans and clutch? Are you getting 20,000 miles of track use out of an engine? Less? More?
 

luc

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The engine failure on 5.0's do we have any indication why that failure is happening? oil starvation? First ive heard of it, and I track my car along side other 5.0 mustangs frequently.
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Cylinder 8

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luc

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but GM and Dodge spent the effort to get their engines such that they CAN be used reliably on track. What's wrong at Ford HQ? Freshening up is one thing and to be expected. But catastrophic failure is NOT acceptable. And it appears it is happening WAY beyond the reasonable.

@luc what's the grenade interval been on the engine, trans and clutch? Are you getting 20,000 miles of track use out of an engine? Less? More?
Factory clutches was at 7k and 15k
Basically exploded on a high rpm’s shift
My first engine died at 20k. Issue with cylinder 8 Have 5 on the new one
My friend first engine blew at around 25, the second one at 40 and the 3rd at 45. The 3rd, a long block must have had a factory defect

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pappagray

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What was the source of failing cylinders? pistons break or rings?
 

sakman84

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Former GT350 owner here: this is something that the folks over in the GT350 forums wouldn’t want to hear - but there is definitely something up with those voodoo engines, despite what people claim.
Although I am super anal about maintenance, broke in the engine as recommended and changed the oil at 1k - My engine nuked itself while idling at a red light. My service advisor at the dealer said that mine was the 4th GT350 that came into their dealership with a blown engine since the start of this year (this was back in May).
Although I haven’t driven a Mach, I’ve sat in a HP one while it was being driven hard and I gotta say it sounds pretty good, and it felt like it handled pretty similar to a 350.
Even though the voodoo is special and the 350 is probably the best car I have driven, you cannot put a price on reliability and peace of mind.
All this is to say: be happy with your Mach 1s. They’re great cars.
WOW, talk about "Shitting the bed", idling at a red light! Worst part about it is that you did everything by the book and had a major failure, always sorry to hear a story like this.

4 in a single dealership YTD in May, yikes. Everyone has a different opinion on the Voodoo reliability. To me buy it new for warranty, consider extended, buy it use and definitely get the newest model you can, and GET the extended warranty. I haven't deep dived into failures, but from the limited searching I did it didn't seem to be a trend, or single common cause. Seems to be all over the place. If I remember correctly there was a TSB issued for GT350s on cam tensioners or something. Needed an inspection mirror to check it.

Personally I don't swear of GT350s completely but I'd like some long term warranty and I'd pay extra attention to oil levels ect. Yes I know extended warranties aren't iron clad...

Good time to be into cars, great that Ford is giving us two wonderful options GT350 and Mach 1.
 

Tshenberg

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OK, so I freely admit this thread partially exists because I'm bored and I would much rather be out driving my ordered Mach, which is another story and why we have the order tracking thread, but-

I keep seeing people disparage the Mach as a "over priced parts car", and I wanted to make a rebuttal thread. Not that it doesn't already exist, but again, boredom.

OK, so in the month of August/September, year of our Lord 2021, buying a car is an absolute nightmare, I think on that we can all agree. After spending waayyyy too many hours looking into options on Mustangs, this is what I've found in general for pricing:

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GT350:
- 2016 with lowish mileage- $55k+
- 2017 with lowish mileage- $59k+
- 2018 with lowish mileage- $62k+
- 2019 with lowish mileage- $65k+
- 2020 with lowish mileage- I don't even bother checking, they are all astronomical

Cleary exceptions exist, and every once in awhile I see for example a 2019 listed online for $62k that doesn't have hideous bodywork/mods and a history of 5 owners or a lemon law return. They don't last long.

Mach 1:
- On ordered cars, 2-4% below invoice, ~6-8% below MSRP (figure $52k +)
- Variable ADM from dealers, ranging from $1k ADM markup to insane numbers like MSRP + $10k

GT premium
- New fully loaded GT premium (PP1, Magneride, 401a, AVES), ~$49k assuming you can get 8% below MSRP on orders
- Used cars are inflated similar to the GT350, but I confess I'm not really shopping this segment
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so now that we have somewhat of a baseline on pricing, we can see that a base 2021 Mach 1 is roughly $3k less than a base 2016 GT350, or ~$12k less than a 2019 GT350. Also keep in mind this is cash value, and it's likely going to be a pain to find someone willing to write an auto loan for a 2019 GT350 (much less a 2016) that has a lower interest rate, so you better plan on paying out of pocket.

I'll be comparing to a 2019 GT350, because that is the car I originally intended to buy before everything went insane-

For $12k extra, over the Mach, you get:
- The just amazing sounding voodoo engine
- The custom bodywork and badging of the Shelby
- Rear Brembo's
- ?slightly better handling? This seems disputed by reviewers
- Bragging rights

For $12k less than the 2019 Shelby, you get:
- An engine that isn't notorious for gernading itself, with better low end torque, and a better option for forced induction if you so wish
- A brand new factory warranty
- New digital dash display, updated rear brake lights, mycolor accents
- GT500 rear diffuser / sub frame
- A car that otherwise is mechanically (transmission and handling) essentially a Shelby
- A different (but still good) exhaust note
- More refined handling options that won't shake your car to pieces on bad roads

For the Mach 1 versus the loaded GT premium, the difference of $4k (Mach 1 premium w/ leather seats- $53k), you get
- "Special handling tuning/programming", whatever that means
- GT500 rear diffuser / subframe
- Unique tuned exhaust
- Tremec transmission, assuming you are going that way
- All of the Shelby cooling systems (transmission, diff)
- Shelby/Bullitt air intake and throttle body, plus tuning
- All of the M1 stickers, appearance stuff

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway. There are a handful of good Mach 1 v GT350 comparison videos/articles out there by auto journalists. I'll link a few below. The major complaint there (as on the forums), is that for the MSRP price of a 2021 fully loaded M1 versus the MSRP of a 2020 Shelby GT350, the M1 is found wanting, as the prices are essentially similar around $65k. I have to say, I don't really have a problem with that- I agree that the prices of all of the 2021 year cars are very high, from the crazy increase in cost of the GT PP1 package to the cost of the Mach 1 . The problem is, we don't live in a world where you can purchase a 2020 GT350 at MSRP. If you were so lucky as to buy a GT350 at MSRP or under, congrats, I hate you (j/k. maybe).

The other common refrain I read is that the "Mach is just an overpriced parts car". OK- first, yes, it is a parts car. But it's built from great parts, parts you would have a very difficult time scrounging on your own- this is NOT a car that you could order a few things from Ford performance and then proclaim, "Hey look at my Mach!". Secondly, is it overpriced? Looking at the value of what you get -again, for a MY2021 car- you are getting a shitload of extras for the $4k over the GT premium. I'd also point out that if you are comparing the 2021 M1 to a 2020 GT PP2, congrats. You can't buy a PP2 for that cost anymore.

Anyway that's the end of my rant thread, feel free to chime in. It'll help kill the time to when my car is (hopefully?) actually built.

M1/Shelby reviews and comparisons:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-ford-mustang-mach-1-first-test-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36030144/2021-ford-mustang-mach-1-drive/

https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-mustang-mach-1-shelby-gt350-gt500-test-data/
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/ford/mustang-mach-1
This is almost exactly the same conclusion I came to , when deciding on GT350 vs Mach 1, and why I went with the Mach 1 in the end.
 

Tshenberg

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I went from my 2015 GT Premium w/50th APP M6, with PowerPack 2 (basically up to Bullitt engine) to the Mach 1, and continue to enjoy it EVERY time I drive it -- even in pouring rain like two days ago here in New England. While I respect Shelby's, I never wanted one. I couldn't see paying that much extra for what I would rarely if ever use, unless I chose to track it. I took the 2015 to HPDE twice and enjoyed it immensely, and realize while I love driving on the track, I have no desire to race against anyone other than myself.
Some will challenge this as "why did you get a Mach 1 then?" Primary reason: my first car was a '69 Mach 1, 351W, 2bbl, auto. So choosing a Mach 1 as my (probably) last gas-powered car only made sense. Once I had the car in my hands for a few weeks, I went to the Ford Performance 2-day school (pre-Mach 1 Track Attack), which solidified for me that the Mach 1 (A10, non-HP) was the right car. The quickness and speed I remain very mindful about since I don't want to scare my passengers or other drivers. The handling makes every winding road fun. And the attention it gets (there still aren't all that many on the road and I have not yet seen another one in with wild except at Carlisle Ford Nationals!!) is fun and gives me a chance to meet new people -- ranging from a 50-60 y/o Maserati driver who admired it and said "be careful with that" to the 20-something skateboarder who yelled out "that's a rad car, dude, my dream car!"
So your rant is dead-on. Could we buy something older and build it to the Mach 1 performance? In most performance aspects, yes. Could we do it as a package for the same as the Mach 1 costs new? Probably not. Could we go with a Shelby and be as happy? Maybe, if that's what you want to do. Bottom line is that the value is in the eyes of the beholder and in this case, this car is worth every penny I paid (no ADM, but I ordered mine on the second day ordering opened in 2020!) The only thing I might have done differently is hold onto my 2015 a few months longer because clearly it is significantly worth more now than it was two months ago when I sold it. Even so, I hope someone else is enjoying it as much as we did for the five years we owned it.
As my wife (not a car person) learned the first time we took a trip in the 2015, Mustang is "a thing" and we should all try to share the joy in our cars, and not carp about the differences.
Rant over. Out.
all this, 100%
 

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JFK9

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The coyote was never intended to live that many miles on track. Neither was the voodoo for that matter.
The difference is the number of voodoos that have apparently blown up driving on the street or at least consuming lots of oil.
Yeah... I mean I'm not thrilled if coyote engines are getting replaced and to be honest if it happened to me again in another Ford, this would probably be my last one, but I have seen WAAAY too many threads with popped voodoos with less than 5k miles on them.
 

JFK9

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Former GT350 owner here: this is something that the folks over in the GT350 forums wouldn’t want to hear - but there is definitely something up with those voodoo engines, despite what people claim.
Although I am super anal about maintenance, broke in the engine as recommended and changed the oil at 1k - My engine nuked itself while idling at a red light. My service advisor at the dealer said that mine was the 4th GT350 that came into their dealership with a blown engine since the start of this year (this was back in May).
Although I haven’t driven a Mach, I’ve sat in a HP one while it was being driven hard and I gotta say it sounds pretty good, and it felt like it handled pretty similar to a 350.
Even though the voodoo is special and the 350 is probably the best car I have driven, you cannot put a price on reliability and peace of mind.
All this is to say: be happy with your Mach 1s. They’re great cars.
Oh man, it really is like my Focus RS all over again... To make it even worse the defensiveness caused by choice-supportive bias caused the RS forums to become straight toxic.
 

JFK9

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why the hell not? Is Ford Engine slacking off, while their GM and German counterparts actually DO spend the time and effort to get a engine RIGHT? (not to say they havnt' f'ked up hear and there). The Coyote has 15 years of so-called "development" behind it. It should be as reliable as a M1 tank (ok, probably not a good comparison - I don't know the metrics on that powerplant)

Oiling issues on Cyl 7/8? Heat issues on Cyl 7/8? What the hell has Ford been playing at for over a decade?
I will say that I experienced issues on their RS engines and the same thing seems to be happening to their 5.2 liter engines, other than this one post I have never heard of any systemic issues with the coyote 5.0, OG 5.0, and really (other than it just kind of being a mediocre power plant) their 4.6 liter engines. I may be wrong, but from my point of view Ford does great with engines they have properly tested and have experience with. They have just got into the habit recently of putting out their new stuff too quickly without really figuring out if the set up will work on the long term or on a mass scale.
 

13GetThere

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Seems like the same A-wipes show up in almost every thread taking a baseball bat to the Mustang and/or Ford with inflated reports of unreliability and poor performance compared to the competition. Like they are out to destroy a good discussion. It gets old.
 

shogun32

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Yup here you are again!

It's a gripe thread. Says so right in the title. Worshipful contemplation is being held across the hall in annex B.
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