Angrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Threads
56
Messages
1,200
Reaction score
928
Location
Coral Gables
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT350
Actually, the analogy of can’t get in much trouble with 300lb/ft of a torque is far from correct. Big difference between a live axle and an independent. Little bit of a bumpy surface completely changes the attitude of the car, especially in a corner. I didn’t skip over the part about traction control and such. My point was to learn to drive the car without all that stuff on. And it still goes back to cost. Not sure how a 15k aftermarket system equates to fractions of pennies on the dollar in a production vehicle by a manufacturer. Let’s be honest, pretty much no one is using a motec system in a stock configuration, it’s part of a tens of thousands of dollars in updrades. If any of us want to spend that type of money for that type of hardware there are several manufacturers providing the vehicles that have it, it’s just way north of the 100k mark. You mentioned the Tesla black’s prowess in the rain. Back in the day the Cyclone and Typhoon were the same, better in the wet then dry as far as acceleration numbers went.

And I’m no dale Schumacher wtf that is, but I do know how to drive. Better then some, not as well as others.
I'm not sure you're grasping the root concepts here. If FORD did the updated strategies and updated the PCM/BCM there would be NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO SPEND THOUSANDS ON THEIR CAR. The infrastructure for managing the traction systems is ALREADY IN PLACE. It's simply "strategy" and tune (or said in another way, it's just computer codes). So if FORD wanted to, they could join the rest of the marketplace technology and update their traction control settings and there would be NO NEED for something like a MOTEC piggy back system. The cost for Ford to do that research and implementation on ONE VEHICLE and then applied to tens of thousands is peanuts to each individual car owner.

The Tesla isn't superior from a capability/sensor/mechanical infrastructure standpoint for traction, it's SIMPLY A MATTER OF HOW THE IN PLACE COMPONENTS ADJUST TO DELTA-V.

Again, everyone should learn to drive and be responsible. That goes without saying. But it would take a very small amount of effort and resources to bring Ford's traction control systems UP TO PAR with the rest of the marketplace which provides a MUCH SAFER product (particularly for cars putting out gobs of power and torque) for those who aren't quite as experienced or responsible as you.

Or we could just sit in a tower and tell everyone to learn how to drive. That's probably more effective.

 

ShadesOfBloo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
975
Reaction score
3,214
Location
SE Virginia
Vehicle(s)
Datsun210 wagon, 92 240SX, 08 Evo, 20 Mustang GT
I spent Sunday at an autocross, saw the Mustangs doing well, and was happily telling people

"'Mustang' is not a verb today!" 😄

Little did I know...
 

CANTWN4LSN

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 17, 2015
Threads
13
Messages
658
Reaction score
259
Location
northwest
Vehicle(s)
2017 GT350
@Angrey making a good case for a better traction control system. However, if I am not an expert driver in a high HP car I am actually better off without the current traction control system on? I have a hard time buying that. Not sure but I bet if every GT350 owner turned of their traction control system we'd see a lot more of these photos. I've noticed it help just in turning on weather mode in the rain.
 

460Fred

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Threads
63
Messages
1,863
Reaction score
1,493
Location
California
First Name
Fred
Vehicle(s)
‘19 GT350
I'm not sure you're grasping the root concepts here. If FORD did the updated strategies and updated the PCM/BCM there would be NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO SPEND THOUSANDS ON THEIR CAR. The infrastructure for managing the traction systems is ALREADY IN PLACE. It's simply "strategy" and tune (or said in another way, it's just computer codes). So if FORD wanted to, they could join the rest of the marketplace technology and update their traction control settings and there would be NO NEED for something like a MOTEC piggy back system. The cost for Ford to do that research and implementation on ONE VEHICLE and then applied to tens of thousands is peanuts to each individual car owner.

The Tesla isn't superior from a capability/sensor/mechanical infrastructure standpoint for traction, it's SIMPLY A MATTER OF HOW THE IN PLACE COMPONENTS ADJUST TO DELTA-V.

Again, everyone should learn to drive and be responsible. That goes without saying. But it would take a very small amount of effort and resources to bring Ford's traction control systems UP TO PAR with the rest of the marketplace which provides a MUCH SAFER product (particularly for cars putting out gobs of power and torque) for those who aren't quite as experienced or responsible as you.

Or we could just sit in a tower and tell everyone to learn how to drive. That's probably more effective.
Hard to believe it’s that simple. The way you splain it, it’s a no brainer.
 

Venomous Pony

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Threads
0
Messages
158
Reaction score
166
Location
Florida
First Name
Robert
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500/2019 F-350 / 2021 Bronco First Edition
I have a 2020 GT500 as well as owned a 2020 GT350 and numerous other Mustangs over the years. I unequivocally disagree with you. I have driven both of these vehicles to the limits with and without the traction control disabled. The 500 is a complete mess without the traction control strategy from the factory. Is there room for improvement? It’s possible. But to stomp around saying it’s worthless is just not right. What are you trying to sell? I guess it’s quite obvious. As far as this GT350’s owner driving beyond his capabilities is not for me to say.
 


Tomster

Beware of idiots
Joined
Feb 20, 2016
Threads
256
Messages
14,058
Reaction score
12,991
Location
FL
First Name
Tom
Vehicle(s)
'20 RR GT500R(CFTP), 18 OW GT350R Base, '17 AG GT350R Electronics Pack, '97 PG Cobra Convertible
I have a 2020 GT500 as well as owned a 2020 GT350 and numerous other Mustangs over the years. I unequivocally disagree with you. I have driven both of these vehicles to the limits with and without the traction control disabled. The 500 is a complete mess without the traction control strategy from the factory. Is there room for improvement? It’s possible. But to stomp around saying it’s worthless is just not right. What are you trying to sell? I guess it’s quite obvious. As far as this GT350’s owner driving beyond his capabilities is not for me to say.
I agree. I don't know who said what, but what you said is correct.
 

Angrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Threads
56
Messages
1,200
Reaction score
928
Location
Coral Gables
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT350
I have a 2020 GT500 as well as owned a 2020 GT350 and numerous other Mustangs over the years. I unequivocally disagree with you. I have driven both of these vehicles to the limits with and without the traction control disabled. The 500 is a complete mess without the traction control strategy from the factory. Is there room for improvement? It’s possible. But to stomp around saying it’s worthless is just not right. What are you trying to sell? I guess it’s quite obvious. As far as this GT350’s owner driving beyond his capabilities is not for me to say.
What I'm saying is that it's not practical in any fashion, hence the reason most guys unplug it.

The MOTEC system uses a lot of torque table information and they dyno the thing a zillion times, at various throttle positions and so they basically profile the car's power across all conditions (not just WOT) and that enables it to use both spark timing AND throttle position to control power/torque output and limit the car's torque output for the speed and gear it's in BEFORE it gets out of shape.

Then they apply a range of settings (say 1 through 9) for different profiles that you can select based on the tire/grip conditions. This means the car is already limiting the power for the particular gearing BEFORE the driver ever gets it out of shape. Then, using the already existing traction control sensory array, if it senses wheel sleep it can use a graduated approach to choke timing (instantly) and if that doesn't rectify the change in wheel speeds it can change throttle angle (which is already altered based on the setting/speed to be close) and make minor throttle adjustments and if ALL THAT still isn't enough, it can then shut down spark to cylinders. The result is, a car that with the right setting selected, puts the MAXIMUM power and torque output the traction will allow. This is how guys with 4 digit power keep the car from being on roller skates.

NONE OF THIS is changing of the existing mechanical systems, it's all tune and data and a piggy back system on top of the OEM computer, harness and display functions (it actually interfaces through the tachometer using the cruise button as a selector).

So if your car makes 1700 HP at WOT peak, it may only allow the car to produce say 1/3 of that in 2nd gear at 45 mph (with throttle pitch) regardless of the pedal input.

This means it's ACTIVELY managing the power for the speed and condition (gear) rather than trying to DRASTICALLY react to pull the car in once the driver has already gotten it way beyond what the tires could handle.

ALL of this could be done by Ford from the factory and updated with nothing more than testing of a couple fleet cars and perfecting it and then fielding that tune/strategy for either new models (or some additional reprogramming of PCM/BCM or an add on module).

The result is a car that instead of being wildly overcapable for the traction, it will only allow you to dance on the edge and actively hamstrings the car BEFORE you get into trouble.

Jay from Real Street explains it brilliantly here:

First Hard Pulls in Motec 1352WHP Whipple GT500 - YouTube
 

K4fxd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Threads
59
Messages
5,432
Reaction score
3,234
Location
NKY
First Name
Dan
Vehicle(s)
2017 gt, 2002 FXDWG, 2008 C6,
The result is a car that instead of being wildly overcapable for the traction, it will only allow you to dance on the edge and actively hamstrings the car BEFORE you get into trouble.
Might as well get a Tesla. I can drive and don't want any nannies.
 

HoosierDaddy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Threads
199
Messages
9,677
Reaction score
18,414
Location
Winchestertonfieldville (ok, Scottsdale), AZ
First Name
Randy
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Premium PP

RocketGuy3

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Threads
34
Messages
1,034
Reaction score
423
Location
Dallas, TX
Vehicle(s)
2021 Mach 1, 2016 Cayman GT4
There's no doubt that driver skill and experience get a vote. The point being, that back when Mustangs didn't have quite the drastic power to traction ratio that they do now, there's only so much trouble you can get into with a car that makes 300 ft-lbs of torque.

Fast forward to today where right off the showroom floor, the cars will roll the tires in just about every gear that isn't an overdrive.

Yes, everyone should be an experienced and responsible driver. The reality is that isn't the case.

And you totally skipped over the part where I pointed out, it has NOTHING to do with hardware or sensor capability. The GT350 has the proper mechanical parts to be able to field a functional traction control strategy. Ford just doesn't offer it. The MOTEC system piggy backs right off the factory computer system and harnesses. It can be removed and the car fully returned to stock conditions. It's simply a matter of WHAT the strategy is and does. The amount of money/time for Ford to put into a proper TC protocol is peanuts when you spread it across a fleet of cars. They could literally dyno and program one single car, update the tune/program and now the car is INFINITELY more safe and capable, given the amount of power and lack of traction is has. IF you or I can do it for $15k, I imagine Ford could afford to do it and pass along an extra dollar of cost to every new vehicle. Then you have a system that helps every driver who isn't Dale Schumacher Force like you.
Hmm, I don't know. Anecdotally, my Mach 1 doesn't feel like it spins the tires ALL that easily even when the tires are still a bit cool, especially in a high gear. Tire compounds (not to mention chassis components) have improved along with powertrains over the years, and I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they were even improving in close to direct proportion.

Having said that, I do think that the Ford traction control is pretty awkward and obtrusive when it kicks in in most modes. Incidentally, I didn't really have too much of a problem with it in my old 2015 GT PP, but I was usually driving that in track mode, which I didn't want to try in the Mach 1 yet until I become more comfortable with the feel of the car.

I also think you want your traction control systems to be reactive rather than proactive, at least in a sports car. My GT4, which has the best traction and stability I've ever experienced, is great about that. It gives you like a good 15 degrees or so of yaw to play with before it decides you're about to kill yourself. Great way to learn the limits of the car without risking the entire biscuit.
 

raptor17GT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Threads
12
Messages
982
Reaction score
733
Location
Scotland
Vehicle(s)
Mustang GT Manual 2017
Sure, I am global.

And ship it for next to nothing.
does that work both ways? You could run a business shipping nice parts for members from the US to UK and mainland Europe hell possibly Australia too!
 

Tomster

Beware of idiots
Joined
Feb 20, 2016
Threads
256
Messages
14,058
Reaction score
12,991
Location
FL
First Name
Tom
Vehicle(s)
'20 RR GT500R(CFTP), 18 OW GT350R Base, '17 AG GT350R Electronics Pack, '97 PG Cobra Convertible
does that work both ways? You could run a business shipping nice parts for members from the US to UK and mainland Europe hell possibly Australia too!
No. My job allows me to ship personal items for my own use. I once bought a transmission in San Diego and flew it home on the aircraft I was flying for $60. It occupied an entire pallet.
 

pilotgore

Well-Known Member
Gold Sponsor
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Threads
36
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
1,614
Location
US
Vehicle(s)
A bunch
No. My job allows me to ship personal items for my own use. I once bought a transmission in San Diego and flew it home on the aircraft I was flying for $60. It occupied an entire pallet.
A whole pallet…. Damnnnnnnn, That sounds nice! I have to wrap tires in plastic bags and throw them in the cabin because the door to the main cargo area is 1” too narrow for cup 2’s :)

E7FA482B-9813-4657-ABD6-1A9224C1F79F.jpeg
 
OP
OP
Eclipsar

Eclipsar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Threads
60
Messages
1,637
Reaction score
1,005
Location
UK
Vehicle(s)
NFG Mustang GT
A whole pallet…. Damnnnnnnn, That sounds nice! I have to wrap tires in plastic bags and throw them in the cabin because the door to the main cargo area is 1” too narrow for cup 2’s :)

E7FA482B-9813-4657-ABD6-1A9224C1F79F.jpeg
You need to get a bigger plane 😂
 

 
100 - Vargas Turbo - 1
Top