Stock Gen 3 bobweight/ complete piston-Rod weight??

[BlueCollarDaily]

Exploring options for trying to weight match aftermarket components to stock balance job ( aka poor ) does anyone have the stock weights total? Trying to put together the most economical yet stronger than factory no rebalance combo.....
Thanks
Shawn

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[EFI]

The rods are about 613-618, pistons are in the low-mid 370s.

But I have to ask, why is the cost of balancing (which is usually around $150-200) the determining factor in this build? Even if you get something "close enough" not to need a re-balance, in the long run it's going to cost you more than if you had balanced them in the first place.

 

[NASteve]

I wouldn't let a rebalance prevent you from building what you want. spend the money on the balance job and then get what is needed either H-beams or I-beams for rods and a proper piston and have it balanced. Besides that you're splitting hairs at this point because balancing a rotating assembly isn't an exact science. When we balance a rotating assembly we have different ways of doing so, .5oz @ 1" or .25oz @ 1", even then we add about 5 grams extra for oil on the parts but really who knows exactly how much is attached to the assembly so its a guess. Just buy what you need and have it balanced accordingly, preferably .25oz @ 1" for the most accurate job.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

I wouldn't let a rebalance prevent you from building what you want. spend the money on the balance job and then get what is needed either H-beams or I-beams for rods and a proper piston and have it balanced. Besides that you're splitting hairs at this point because balancing a rotating assembly isn't an exact science. When we balance a rotating assembly we have different ways of doing so, .5oz @ 1" or .25oz @ 1", even then we add about 5 grams extra for oil on the parts but really who knows exactly how much is attached to the assembly so its a guess. Just buy what you need and have it balanced accordingly, preferably .25oz @ 1" for the most accurate job.

Right, windage is a huge variable of its own, however still being new to the Coyote platform this once piece plastic welded design looks to be trying to control that a bit BUT i suppose on a stock engine with oil squrters that a variable as well? if the factory included the oil they are purposely putting on the piston vs natural windage into their calcs then who knows once you go aftermarket and squirter block offs.....

To answer yours and the previous persons question is I dont have a YOU in my area handing coyote balancing...Id prefer if I can get within a few grams off ( ive seen factory be horrendous before ) to just assemble in the garage as usual. Instead of loading something up and dragging several hours IF I can find someone, then I dont really trust them to be detail oriented and do a good job anyway, the industry is just terrible right now...

I want to run the JE ultra with perfect skirt for the plasma bore block with a decent rod, however if forced I guess Ill use the Mahle no rebalance piston only...on my good rotator minus a cracked secondary ring land...I caught it super early as I was pulling plugs and doing test after every test pull while logs were sent in.....I just wanted away from 12 to 1 going down to 11 to 1 as this is my 3rd ( possibly 4th ) engine in 4k miles of use....e85 is not available in my area and I have the largest pulley that will fit on my blower...dropping to 11 to 1 pistons, I was hoping to find the same Mahle no rebalance combo ( or JE 12 to 1 ultra with a spec pin and ring package using a k1 rod they give me to be plus or minus 2 grams; using the 11 to 1 changes all that ).

BTW even the one machine shop that might could be trusted with that several hours away Ive personally known people to take their stuff in and not be done 4 months later and end up having to pick it back up and take it somewhere else...and its not remotely $200 here even without Mallory...that was another reason I asked, I was trying to see what I could get that insured I didnt have to use heavy metal in the balance job and end up with the compression and design I want and 500 in a balance job.....

Planning to buy a new finish honed block so was trying if possible to keep the machine shop completely out of the equation, sometimes ( the one ive been using for 30 years closed down, well was bought out and turned into a personal one for a racing program ) a bad machine shop is worse than rolling the dice yourself.....

If I buy a prebalanced rotator then I waste my perfectly good 900 miles on it crank ( and I cant piece it together hiding from my wife bahaha )...just looking for the simplest cheapest way to get a little extra strength at the piston so it doesnt break the secondary ring land every time it shifts from 2-3rd if you sneeze on it....I like the technology as explained to me of the JE ultra with perfect skirt for this block, however being that I cant drop anymore boost out of the combination and its still to much for 93 was weighing my options to drop to 11 to 1....

thanks all feel free to PM any combos or pricing if someone runs across this....thanks sincerely 4 engines in a new car with 5k miles on it....shakes my head...lol....

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

There is a glaring hole between the stock vs 1200-1500hp builds...it seems the 700-900 wheel area is non existent...its stock bore block with a 12 to 1 and dont upset the apple cart....or $3200 with the ride both ways for MY core and sleeves which would be nuts overkill for a 750hp 93 built maybe max of 850 ish MS109 a few times a year.....

 

[NASteve]

Then your best bet maybe to buy a short block if you have no competent machine shops you trust.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Then your best bet maybe to buy a short block if you have no competent machine shops you trust.

Maybe but I can get the block from Summit Free shipping for 875 and possibly even a coupon....Mahle Pistons arent much...thats adding about 3x the cost piecing together myself ( using the cheapest one i can find ) with the shipping for only a slight improvement in strength area Im looking for.....
Ill just have to take a little time and learn the platform more I suppose, I see a lot on this side just open up the check book, im used to scavenging and piecing together my own combos for maximum area under the curve so to speak in terms of thrift.....people seem quick to turn over all the engine combos and tuning to others on this side of the fence, and while the Torque based PCM is certainly a mountain to climb...come on short blocks and engine building?

So its not lost in translation I DO appreciate the responses, I just assumed someone had taken theirs apart and weighed their stock components then developed a thrifty slightly stronger than the fragile ( at 12 to 1 on 93, their design to the eye actually seems quite good in terms of crown area, anodized top ring and grafal however it just takes NOTHING to break the secondary lands the rods and crank are certainly adequate for 700s ) stock piston, load out especially when a forged piston would match the thermal expansion characteristics of the plasma bore better anyway. The irony is not lost that its lazy of me to ask, ill just tear it down when it warms up a bit and do it, however I just wanted one ready to go when the tracks opened....im itching after a year and 3 stock engines to make my first pass in 2 years....

 

[NASteve]

Even if you get the bobweights where you want, then it leaves oil clearances which are a much bigger deal than the bobweights. Even brand new parts need to be checked and sometimes touched up before assembly because the bores will be off on either rods, sometimes the pistons where the wrist pin goes. There is also tolerances with bearings that will sometimes force you to buy 2 or 3 sets just to get the clearances right, I've had good luck with King bearings but it still happens. Then there is the block itself, TQ plate honing for piston to wall clearance as well as cylinder bore roundness, if you want it to last then it must be done right, otherwise you could be on engine 5 shortly.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Even if you get the bobweights where you want, then it leaves oil clearances which are a much bigger deal than the bobweights. Even brand new parts need to be checked and sometimes touched up before assembly because the bores will be off on either rods, sometimes the pistons where the wrist pin goes. There is also tolerances with bearings that will sometimes force you to buy 2 or 3 sets just to get the clearances right, I've had good luck with King bearings but it still happens. Then there is the block itself, TQ plate honing for piston to wall clearance as well as cylinder bore roundness, if you want it to last then it must be done right, otherwise you could be on engine 5 shortly.

I did factor in I might have to buy multiple sets of king bearings, Ive had to do this before and it does suck I cant use any of my spare parts on this platform. I understand most the factors in quality engine building tq plate honing ect ect....how are you going to hone a THIN as hell plasma bore? does your shop do this on plasma bores? if so how much because my block only has the tiniest of scuffs as is and maybe I could sent it in to be honed out and reused, as any meaningful amount of truing up the bore would take more material out than this scuff would, its not an iron sleeve.
Im not worried about deck being straight enough these arent lifting heads at my boost ect. I am new to this platform but Ive done enough and spent enough on top notch blueprinting ( buying many of the mics that would be needed myself, installing cam bearings myself ect ect ) and sure if a piston pin is 2 tight ect ect ill deal with it. I do expect to get clearances correct it may take me more than one set of bearings this is an area im actually used to and doesnt bother me ( except all my spare parts are irrelavant now ), I use a rod bolt stretch gauge ect ect ( Unless torque to yield ) ...One of the areas I am a little apprehensive about is thrust clearance...

Ive had great success with my own builds often enough that Im not concerned the stock bores seem to be concentric enough to hold 1000 hp with the correct fuels and I had very minimal amounts of blow by across all the engines especially given the fact of the narrow 1mm top ring ( i guess the plasma bore tech does yield great roundness? ) , I dont mind rolling the dice there at all especially with the perfect skirt JE design going in so tight ( .0005 skirt to wall ) and breaking into and conforming to the plasma bore as it runs in the first 25 minutes of operation at whatever thermal expansion takes place in real time individually per bore ( as it has been explained to me ) however DEFINITELY if you hone the paper thin plasma bores 1 of 2 things both of which are good. You either arent needing to take much out of new blocks to true it up ( good for home build ) OR you can take more out than I imagine which would be good for repairing my current block. How much material can you hone from a gen 3 plasma bore it literally only has 900 miles on it.....this could be the break im looking for....

MLS gaskets with new coatings ( got it was nuts getting RA right in the beginning with Cometic ) really helped the home builder have greater success without decking due their operational design, same with intake ports and exhaust MLS style gaskets...

The stock engine is almost enough ( it actually IS enough it just cant handle a lick of detonation even once be it 50 states tune or aftermarket or the fueling said tunes try to use to keep EGTs down with 93 as it seem the fuel gets trapped in the secondary ring layer builds up and pops the secondary land under the slightest detonation plug beating the plasma bore to death at bdc) in fact i suppose the Mahle forged no rebalance is the best bet for thrift, I just wanted to open up tuning window not build a 1200hp engine....though I do acknowledge ive caught some pretty crazy clearances( usually to tight ) before home building and REALLY screwed up cams while degreeing them in but that wont be an issue here....

 

[SheepDog]

Aluminator.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Aluminator.

do they make that for gen 3 yet? when I looked several months back they werent but if I recall thats more expensive than livernois or LM

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

thanks for all the responses so far and if I find out plasma bore blocks can be honed and max amount, thats huge and well worth the thread!!!!! cause I got 2 that barely need a cleaning up...one tiny amount I just thought the bore were nuts thin like .006-.008

 

[NASteve]

Haven't done a GEN 3 so I don't know about the plasma liners, seen a few sleeved now and a Bear block but no I have not done a GEN 3. But everything still applies, the best I can tell you is if you try this measure everything, TQ it down min of 3 times and break it loose and then remeasure, even if something doesn't seem out of place check it.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Haven't done a GEN 3 so I don't know about the plasma liners, seen a few sleeved now and a Bear block but no I have not done a GEN 3. But everything still applies, the best I can tell you is if you try this measure everything, TQ it down min of 3 times and break it loose and then remeasure, even if something doesn't seem out of place check it.

Very heartened to hear you say this as my friends have literally make fun of me because I let the bolts set on torque ( except when using a stretch gauge) over night and come back and redo it before finally assembly next day.....haha they literally make fun of me for doing that...and now I have a pro saying basically do similar.....

It's one of them things when they already think I'm overly anal for a home build guy they dont have gram scales, specific lubricants, calibrated tq wrenches ( come to think of it I dont either loaned it ug), multi speed ring eng gap process just everything....the BBC and LS stuff just lives so easy they barely clean shit much less stress on details....then again they srent turning their long rod short stroke F1A-94 procharger 1200hp BBC 7500rpm on literally $350 rods and arp 2000 bolts with discontinued pistons and rods white box blemish shit for 6-7 years straight zero issues either LOL).
This blowing up is very new to me when I was 17 a LONG time ago I accidentally the first time I got good pistons went to the storage unit I converted into a little shop, while working 70hrs that week and hastily but the pistons together on rods ( best stuff I'd ever head at that date and it was used from a super chevy swap meet) put them precisely each inverted LOL closed door at 2am went home slept 4hrs worked 12 next day. That engine had a little "valve train noise" Haha. Finally pulled intake then heads all pistons hard been touched I just deburred the notches hehe...replaced 4 slightly bent valve put right back together and it lasted me God 4 years on a 150shot so 680ish wheel...then sold it and that guy ran it another 5 or so in a wagon....
I always sale before it pops I've never had a catastrophic engine failure ( rear end yes and trans) over all these years just seem to be able to know when to freshen or sale up to upgrade I've never had to eat the cost like this....its new to me and I'm thrifty....I'm thinking Ford isnt so thrifty hehe even if awesome....I have 4 BBC blocks which have been sonic checked good to 110 thousandths over, I even have a .070 set of the discontinued blemish pistons in case my 60 over oddball ( 2 for 1 bought them together 60 and 70 over probe 2618 both for like 560 together yes seriously) destroked long rod 440ci bbc breaks a ring I could bore it to the 70s or 80-90-110...its so insane to me that a block with a hairline scratch I mean like human hair thickness is $3200 for interlocking darton sleeves or boat anchor its super hard to accept when for $2200 I can but a Dart big M make a 632ci and 3k hp....or take a gen 4 LH6 5.3l and bore it all the way to 5.7L and have thicker sleeves by .100 than a stock 6.2L for boost....its all same sleeve in some variants if you know. Then you can adjust with heads I have anywhere between 243 to 317 dropping a point same valve and I have both.....or ls3/l92...in fact I just sold a spare 6.0l with the boost heads on and a set of the LS3 ones ( flow little more than gen 3 coyote at 358cfm for $900 total)...
None of that is a Ford vs Chevy, it's to illustrate I'm just not used to spending big money like Ford guys do....I may not have the cost of the livernois short block cheapest engine with shipping in my entire cant kill it brodix aluminum headed custom one off induction package BBC that's put out power and rpm for years...I don't even run an intercooler just total seal AP gapless top rings and meth that quits have the time...even had a pump burn up with 87 in it 4 years ago...no problems ( i run 87 during winter if I am around 11 psi which is a lot on a 700hp base engine )...
None of that is to compare but to validate my cheapness lol, I've already spent more so far in 1year of ownership than a lifetime....I got an engine quote last week 10k bahaha I about spit my coke out my nostrils lol naw man.....
I think I may not have enough money to be a Ford guy hehe...sucks that 8000rpm coyote and A10 are nasty as hell and love the way it looks ( plus my daughter loves Mustangs may have to break her heart) sometimes though if you just get used to things costing a certain amount it's hard to triple that up...
I do have hope though if I can hang in there salvage yards are already turning up decent prices on a10s ect...hehe....

Thanks all

 

[Stymee]

Don’t tell me u blew up another engine?

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