Stock 15-17 fuel pressure

Grimreaper

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are you going to run larger wire for the dual pumps on those holleys? likely will drop 2-3volts from the fuse box to the pumps on stock wiring.

if using a voltage booster or brushless controller it would be better to trigger from the stock signal for the lo to hi so you can adjust the pressures accurately. roush does this on the gen2 setups on the phase 2. uses the jms fuelmax ez voltage booster. the ecu dosnt get any extra fuel unless it commands it at the correct fuel flow and it knows its there and expects it. never have been a fan of any hobs or pedal based fuel boost. no way for the ecu to know.

from mikes testing on the gen3 the stock ecu outputs 150hz to the fpdm, fpdm to pump 9600hz,
DC is halfed feeding the FPDM. and corrected (so to speak) coming out to the pump. i have an oscilloscope and can check the gen2 but the tune settings are identical in this regards on both.

why do we need to keep the FPDM with the brushless controller on the dw440?
i cant find anything on what type of signal it needs to trigger hi/lo. but regardless signal conditioning shouldn't be too bad
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WildHorse

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are you going to run larger wire for the dual pumps on those holleys?
I'll most likely use a relay.
why do we need to keep the FPDM with the brushless controller on the dw440?
I'm assuming that it would be responsible for triggering lo/hi. But, I have no idea on how.
 

engineermike

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why do we need to keep the FPDM with the brushless controller on the dw440?
Man that’s a great question. We kicked that around as well. I think you could ditch the fpdm but it would take some unconventional tuning and possibly a transistor. The pcm output is 8 to 50% for pump command and 75% for off command. The brushless controller (VFD) understands less than 40% as the off command and 40-100 is just 40-100%. You can modify the tune to output <20% for off and 40-100 as min and max. However, it’s still sending a +/open pwm not the -/open needed by the VFD. It might still work though, depending on the internal wiring of the VFD.

Two other issues are that the pcm talks to the fpdm for diagnostics so ranges and/or diagnostic codes might need to be disabled, if possible. And finally if the current draw from the VFD signal wire is high enough it could damage the pcm, but this is unlikely I am told.

i cant find anything on what type of signal it needs to trigger hi/lo. but regardless signal conditioning shouldn't be too bad
The hi/low VFD just needs the signal wire grounded to switch to high IIRC, or I might have that backwards. The 2-speed controller is a different part number from the continuously variable one..
 

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Looking at that Holley setup, are there no baffles? Looks to me like the pumps will uncover with half tank or slightly less.
 
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Looking at that Holley setup, are there no baffles? Looks to me like the pumps will uncover with half tank or slightly less.
It uses hydramat. As long as the mat is in fuel you'll never run into fuel starvation in the event the pump becomes uncovered. Plus you should be racing with less than half a tank anyways.
 
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WildHorse

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The hi/low VFD just needs the signal wire grounded to switch to high IIRC, or I might have that backwards.
Yeah that's correct. I don't see how the PCM can do that. Hence the need for the DW controller. AFAIK.
 

Grimreaper

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I'll most likely use a relay.

I'm assuming that it would be responsible for triggering lo/hi. But, I have no idea on how.
relay with separate 10 or 8 gauge wiring from the battery? parallel 10ga should do but 8ga just reduces the drop even more. knowing the actual length can help zero in on what you will need.

im seeing the FPDM as 'dumb' device. pcm triggers, it responds and converts the signal to something that works better for a pump motor in hot/cold fuel and high loads. from 150hz to 9600hz. possible that frequency is best to keep the motor moving at low speed or needed to overcome start up at low speed. The pump is not registering the frequency or duty cycle. its not fast enough. its seeing 5v or 9v or 12v etc based on the DC%. That high a freq running through the cabin with the load the pump pulls would be EMF hell im sure. probably why its stuck under the rear seat a foot from the pump.


Man that’s a great question. We kicked that around as well. I think you could ditch the fpdm but it would take some unconventional tuning and possibly a transistor. The pcm output is 8 to 50% for pump command and 75% for off command. The brushless controller (VFD) understands less than 40% as the off command and 40-100 is just 40-100%. You can modify the tune to output <20% for off and 40-100 as min and max. However, it’s still sending a +/open pwm not the -/open needed by the VFD. It might still work though, depending on the internal wiring of the VFD.

Two other issues are that the pcm talks to the fpdm for diagnostics so ranges and/or diagnostic codes might need to be disabled, if possible. And finally if the current draw from the VFD signal wire is high enough it could damage the pcm, but this is unlikely I am told.



The hi/low VFD just needs the signal wire grounded to switch to high IIRC, or I might have that backwards. The 2-speed controller is a different part number from the continuously variable one..
you are right looks like there is feedback from the fpdm with saftey checks involved. depending on the signal returned to the pcm, may or may not be easy to work around or keep in the loop.

DW state it needs a constant 12v+ for power on both versions but i am wondering if the power source can be varied to control output with the controller wired for 100% on. let the FPDM pwm it for hi/lo or anything in between. some brushless can handle this, others do it differently but usually they need to know physical location of the rotor in the motor. i do not see the normal sensor wires typical for a hal sensor on this dw440 pump. its possible they have an IC in the controller that handles the pump output and it needs powered on to do so. This would likely foil my power source pwm plan but depending on the voltage input range might still work.

the controller should just be looking for mean voltages that pwm would provide from the pcm to vary the pump output. a potentiometer could be made to control it basically.

the 2011-2014 coyote dw440 install manual lists a signal invertor they sell as part of the install.

wonder what the pcm signal looks like with the inversion switch flipped! ill check that change in the tune once i get the car back from the shop. (ecm6979) if that converts to ground at 100%dc we should be in business.

ill reach out to DW and see if it can be externally pwm controlled.
They really should provide more indepth of whats going electrically on something like this.
 
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found this:

Wiring the PWM Version (PN# 9-441-C103-09xx) 3b – The PWM version of the Deatschwerks Brushless controller, gives you the ability to use your ECU’s Pulse Width output signal to infinitely adjust the pumps output from low to max flow. Wiring the C103 controller can be tricky, knowledge of your cars factory fuel pump wiring system is mandatory. If your car is not factory PWM or your Standalone ECU cannot control a PWM output, you will need to use the C102 controller instead. Most applications will use a ground pulsed signal provided by the ECU or an separate fuel pump control module. • Attach the Red wire on the controller to a known solid non pulsed +12v key on switched source. • Attach the Black controller wire to a known solid non pulsed ground source. • Attach the White wire to the PWM output on your ECU or Fuel Pump Control Module. o The DW controller will accept a pulsed ground signal from 10 to 100k hertz. o Open is 0% duty cycle, and Ground is 100% duty cycle. o Input range is 5% to 95% duty cycle, 0-5% defaults to Off, and 95%+ defaults to 100%. o The signal must be pulsed for the pump to activate, the pump will not turn on if you permanently ground the white wire. o The PWM version of the controller has a default prime cycle that runs automatically for 3 seconds at 68% duty cycle when the controller is powered up.

As for Holley's hydramat :

 
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engineermike

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Great contributions y’all!

From the 2011-14 instructions:

“12c – If your ECU outputs a pulsed positive signal it will have to be converted to a ground signal before you can use the Deatschwerks Brushless Controller. Follow the wiring diagram below to install the signal adapter.”

The “adapter” is probably just a transistor.
 
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Grimreaper

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Attach the White wire to the PWM output on your ECU or Fuel Pump Control Module. o The DW controller will accept a pulsed ground signal from 10 to 100k hertz. o Open is 0% duty cycle, and Ground is 100% duty cycle. o Input range is 5% to 95% duty cycle, 0-5% defaults to Off, and 95%+ defaults to 100%. o The signal must be pulsed for the pump to activate, the pump will not turn on if you permanently ground the white wire. o The PWM version of the controller has a default prime cycle that runs automatically for 3 seconds at 68% duty cycle when the controller is powered up.
reading a bit between the lines, the controller signal wire (white) provides a + voltage out , the PCM or FPDM must provide the ground through PWM. i do not know how they can recommend hooking this direct to the stock wiring. Based on the video you posted for mike, the stock signal appears to be Vbat+ from the PCM and higher DC means more on time. this is inverse of what this controller appears to need.

Good to know for the C103 version which is what the gen3 will need.

The “adapter” is probably just a transistor.
everything points to that! basically leave the stock wiring alone except the fuel pump + wire (yellow/green stripe) that is being pwm from the fpdm. this would control a transistor switching the ground connected to the controller signal (white wire).
 

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Looking at that Holley setup, are there no baffles? Looks to me like the pumps will uncover with half tank or slightly less.
The returns drop fuel right on the hydramat. This system will eliminate pressure drop with less than 1/4 tank. It’s pretty slick.
 

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The returns drop fuel right on the hydramat. This system will eliminate pressure drop with less than 1/4 tank. It’s pretty slick.
looks very slick, I want some in my tank.
 
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WildHorse

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looks very slick, I want some in my tank.
You can buy it separately or just get the whole system. You have the option of return/returnless on the same set up. Frankly I think its much better than the FORE fuel system.
 

andrewtac

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You can buy it separately or just get the whole system. You have the option of return/returnless on the same set up. Frankly I think its much better than the FORE fuel system.
or attach it to my fore system (though not sure how the socks connect to the pumps); at some point in the future I'll probably need triple pumps or something more and will address it then.
 
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