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Special Case: Procharger or Twin Turbo?

BetOnBlack

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I live at 5000 ft above sea level. I want to go FI, but I worry about over-boosting my engine when I take a road trip to sea level. I also drive up to the mountains 9,000-12,000ft.

So far it seems like the only options with on-the-fly adjustable boost is either a pulleyed-down Centrifugal with a wastegate and boost controller or a twin turbo system like Hellion with a boost controller.

I have a '17 6spd daily driver and want 500-600WHP. I'd even be happy with 430 WHP. Only current mods are a 3" MBRP catback exhaust and 20" wheels (305/35 rear).

I've heard turbo cars aren't great for manuals, and the tuning and setup for a boost controlled Centri is pretty complicated too.
The better highway fuel economy with a turbo would be nice to stop less for gas on road trips, but I don't think I could easily install a turbo kit. The Procharger sounds much simpler to DIY.

  1. Since my powertrain warranty is up, would FI void anything else on the warranty?
  2. Would two 55mm ball bearing P1-X turbos have noticeable lag? I plan on tracking the car a few times this year.
  3. Any suggestions for one method over the other?
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engineermike

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You can actually set up the pcm to command a wot torque or engine load that is achievable under all circumstances. It might open the throttle 100% at 12,000 feet but only 60% at sea level, but it’s automatic. You would pulley it to make more boost, then allow the pcm to control it to a safe level by modulating the throttle. Some Ford vehicles actually come from the factory set up this way and the coyote pcm has the functionality available. I’ve tried it on my 2018 Whipple for other reasons and it works surprisingly well.
 

illtal

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I live at 5000 ft above sea level. I want to go FI, but I worry about over-boosting my engine when I take a road trip to sea level. I also drive up to the mountains 9,000-12,000ft.

So far it seems like the only options with on-the-fly adjustable boost is either a pulleyed-down Centrifugal with a wastegate and boost controller or a twin turbo system like Hellion with a boost controller.

I have a '17 6spd daily driver and want 500-600WHP. I'd even be happy with 430 WHP. Only current mods are a 3" MBRP catback exhaust and 20" wheels (305/35 rear).

I've heard turbo cars aren't great for manuals, and the tuning and setup for a boost controlled Centri is pretty complicated too.
The better highway fuel economy with a turbo would be nice to stop less for gas on road trips, but I don't think I could easily install a turbo kit. The Procharger sounds much simpler to DIY.

  1. Since my powertrain warranty is up, would FI void anything else on the warranty?
  2. Would two 55mm ball bearing P1-X turbos have noticeable lag? I plan on tracking the car a few times this year.
  3. Any suggestions for one method over the other?
I would see if your preferred tuner can do what @engineermike suggested

1 if your worried about warranty don't do it
2 your mixing up supercharger (procharger terms) with turbo terms
3 I would say single turbo over twin

All turbo systems will have a lag area, smaller turbo less lag less top end though.
Singles will have lag as well but they respond with a large hit all the way to the redline
Centri superchargers will not have instantaneous boost but have several advantages over PD
Really Turbo is king dick for power, most setup will make more power with less boost than a SC
 
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BetOnBlack

BetOnBlack

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@Hellion on the small turbos is nuts. dont think youll have spool issues.
I've had a hard time finding dyno charts of people running low boost on the small turbos. What rpm does the torque come in? If I'm driving in snowy or icy conditions I'd hate for the boost to blast in suddenly.
 

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sigintel

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I've had a hard time finding dyno charts of people running low boost on the small turbos. What rpm does the torque come in? If I'm driving in snowy or icy conditions I'd hate for the boost to blast in suddenly.
OMG lol, dude, boost is not that crazy either one.
If you are in the snow on snow tires you simply use one gear higher than typical and dont act like a fotard w the throttle its no issue.
I used to live in Colorado:
First off put narrowest snow tire on a set of snow wheels that ford sometime dumps cheap on FRPP (like the sparkles or whatever in 8-9.5 wide and then run narrowest tire).
Next, always run one or two gears higher than typical to reduce torque.

now if you aren't going to run snow tires, but want to drive boost in snow... ehhhh put the bong down?
 

XS

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I live at 5k+ feet too and I've researched this quite a bit plus I have some centri experience with a former fox body I owned.
One thing TT owners never discuss is lag for some reason. The only reason I bring this up is because I was talking with a guy at cars and coffee with a Hellion top mount kit with 55s and I asked him if there's any lag, or if it's true that it drives completely like stock until you're in boost. He said that he himself has noticeable lag. He said it's barely worth caring about but you do notice it and it drives like it's down about 20lb ft of torque below 3k rpm. However he said it doesn't matter to him because it's an absolute animal anyway and he would never go back to stock. But also no, it's not like a big turbo Supra where you have 180 whp until 7k rpm then you have 1000 whp for the last 1k rpm. The TT kits are much more linear than that.
For myself, because I also track the car, and do canyon runs as often as possible, I more or less ruled out turbos. You can turn the boost down but from searching and reading on this site, most guys who track FI cars are centri for a variety of reasons. Some of them seem to be: power comes on more reliably, less heat soak, more throttle response, more gradual torque curve. From what I understand, tracking a TT or positive displacement blower car is more a game of wrestling than finesse trying to get the power down. Tracking a centri car is more a game of finesse since the way boost and torque builds.
I had a centri fox body years ago and I never tracked it, but I did drive it everywhere. I just kept boost at a medium setting for Denver and yeah it made less power in the mountains and more power at sea level, but it was safe everywhere. It still made enough power in the mountains to break loose in 1st gear, it wasn't like I was driving a Kia Optima up there by any means. When I went to sea level it only pinged on one trip and I just babied it for half a tank and put different gas in plus some octane booster for the rest of the trip. Again, totally different car, but if I go centri on my S550 that's what I'll do. Run a medium setup here and it will probably be safe when I leave the state.
 
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BetOnBlack

BetOnBlack

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I live at 5k+ feet too and I've researched this quite a bit plus I have some centri experience with a former fox body I owned.
One thing TT owners never discuss is lag for some reason. The only reason I bring this up is because I was talking with a guy at cars and coffee with a Hellion top mount kit with 55s and I asked him if there's any lag, or if it's true that it drives completely like stock until you're in boost. He said that he himself has noticeable lag. He said it's barely worth caring about but you do notice it and it drives like it's down about 20lb ft of torque below 3k rpm. However he said it doesn't matter to him because it's an absolute animal anyway and he would never go back to stock. But also no, it's not like a big turbo Supra where you have 180 whp until 7k rpm then you have 1000 whp for the last 1k rpm. The TT kits are much more linear than that.
For myself, because I also track the car, and do canyon runs as often as possible, I more or less ruled out turbos. You can turn the boost down but from searching and reading on this site, most guys who track FI cars are centri for a variety of reasons. Some of them seem to be: power comes on more reliably, less heat soak, more throttle response, more gradual torque curve. From what I understand, tracking a TT or positive displacement blower car is more a game of wrestling than finesse trying to get the power down. Tracking a centri car is more a game of finesse since the way boost and torque builds.
I had a centri fox body years ago and I never tracked it, but I did drive it everywhere. I just kept boost at a medium setting for Denver and yeah it made less power in the mountains and more power at sea level, but it was safe everywhere. It still made enough power in the mountains to break loose in 1st gear, it wasn't like I was driving a Kia Optima up there by any means. When I went to sea level it only pinged on one trip and I just babied it for half a tank and put different gas in plus some octane booster for the rest of the trip. Again, totally different car, but if I go centri on my S550 that's what I'll do. Run a medium setup here and it will probably be safe when I leave the state.
Thanks for the insight. Procharger it is then. I'll talk to a tuner about which method they can control boost the best. Engineermike's throttle method or adding a waste gate and boost controller are both options. I daily my car, track it, and like canyons too, so adjusting boost on the fly would be great.
 
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engineermike

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I’m pretty sure all the mainstream tuners will steer you away from wot load control just because it’s not what they would typically do.
 

Jackson1320

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I’m pretty sure all the mainstream tuners will steer you away from wot load control just because it’s not what they would typically do.
Most tuners will not want to invest the time. They just want to get on to the next car and get paid. No tuner will ever take the time to tune a customers car as in depth as there own.
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