Shelby GT350/350R Shifter Buzz Rattle Repair Solution PLEASE READ

Discussion in 'Shelby GT350 Mustang' started by MustangCollector, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. cking

    cking Well-Known Member

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    Lets leave at one man's turd is another man's caper!
     
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  2. btown93

    btown93 Well-Known Member

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    My .02 that nobody asked for

    Boss 302 stock shifter was VERY sloppy, very vague. MGW went in that car, hands down best decision, must do in that car. It makes the MT82 trans feel like something other than an MT-82.

    GT350 stock shifter is worlds better than stock Boss shifter, but not as good as Boss with MGW. MGW is on my "to do list" but isn't a priority. I do expect a similar increase in feel when I finally pull the trigger on the MGW. It is a matter of when, not if, for me. I recall the original MGW for MT-82 had continuous improvements/versions. I will probably give it some time for that reason as well.
     
  3. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    #63 Epiphany, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
    The phrase "polishing a turd" is a colloquialism. IMHO, the objectivity in the simple point I was trying to make was that the failures at the OEM level with respect to the subject matter aren't erased. There's no insidious master plan of attack buried deep within the confines of the comment. Thank God I didn't mention the part about "rolling it in glitter."

    I lauded the OP for his efforts and if you go back and look you'll see.

    And wow. Just wow. My "defensiveness" lies in the apparent inability for some to differentiate what has been said from why they think it has been said. There is no hidden agenda here, and your new mention of ethics has nothing to do with it.

    If your responses are based on your emotional reaction to others' responses I can understand that. That's nice and shows you care. But can we get back to discussing Ford's offshore sourced bundle of goodness?:p


    The sad part about the OEM MT-82 shifter is that it utilized a design that had so much more potential than the GT350 shifter and it's pendulum design. A traditional single axis unit (which got bungled up with the linkage outside of the shifter box) shaft with a simple pivot above was watered down to death in search of a unit that wouldn't offend anyone sensitive to NVH concerns. The bushings used on the first MT-82 shifter were rather soft and the aftermarket has come up with numerous solutions be it increased durometer pieces, brackets aimed at minimizing shifter body movement/deflection, or complete replacement.

    This is what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned that Ford chose to abandon this type of shifter with the GT350. The issue was the direction of rotation with respect to the linkage as the TR3160 requires a shifter whose linkage rotates in the same direction as the stick (when moved laterally). A "countershafted" box clearly was beyond the factory budgeted scope.
     
  4. J_Maher_AMG

    J_Maher_AMG Well-Known Member

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    Yessir, you be him :D

    You are taking my comments out of perspective. I understand your points regarding the OEM design and why you do not like it and why you feel it is a horrible unit. Many of your points regarding long term durability and feel I have agreed with, but also pointed out that there are many "higher" mileage 350's so far with no such issues as the cars aren't being beat on, such as [MENTION=12069]Hack[/MENTION] who has nearly 20,000 miles on his car.

    Yes, I still stand by my original statement that it is one of the best OEM shifters in regards to FEEL from today's offerings. Nobody has ever said, "this is a great shifter" in a review with respect to design. Logic would dictate that I am of course attributing "one of the best" with reference to its feel in comparison to other offerings on the market.

    I also appreciate your detailed responses, and I am not saying you have not been objective. That being said, I did ask if you could provide any examples of shifter designs in today's cars that you feel are far superior to the 350's, and why? As you have stated, and I have not refuted FYI, that I am unaware and not educated on the design of various shifter assemblies across numerous marquees and platforms. So I would love to hear about any you feel that are superior that don't have any of the cost cutting/weaknesses that you have pointed out in the 350's. I imagine some may be marginally better, but I don't see any OEM level offerings having the same level of precision and solidity of an aftermarket unit and wouldn't expect them to.

    If there aren't any, and all of them have inherent weaknesses that can be attributed to cost cutting/budge designs, then you are taking a single unit out of context and judging it as horrible when all across the board would be horrible in your eyes. :shrug:
     
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  5. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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    How many miles are on a given car matters if your metric is distance traveled. That mattered to Ford as it does with any OEM. Look, there are plenty of runners that finished each and every race Usain Bolt won. But nobody remembers the guys that finished behind him. If mediocrity is sufficient, then raise a glass to those that finished mid-pack, or heck, last place for that matter. There are still a number of Yugos on the road, a tip of that hat for the robustness in those little gems too. Point being, we don't expect things to break and it shouldn't be in anyone's mind at this point in time with the current GT350 population. What should be is an eye towards performance and the raw driving experience. From the choice to use a CF wheel, the crazy FPC engine, mag dampers, sophisticated IRS system, massive calipers with unique rotors - all the real deal with no faux hype. The shifter...meh, it's hidden under the tunnel and nobody ever goes under their car these days. As long as it feels good it is good. :doh:

    And yes, these integral mechanical devices have gotten bad across the board. Whether you study the hardware for a cable shifted Italian exotic, or the latest high efficiency MPG king, we are not seeing any movement in quality. Domestic, RWD performance cars are pretty much limited to the Camaro/Corvette, Challenger(etc), or a Mustang. My understanding was that Tremec was doing the TR6060 shifter for Dodge and the same company doing the Camaro shifter is doing the shifter for the GT350. They are either semi-remote box/rail (seems the internal rail units are all going away) or pendulum. All use soft to medium durometer bushing between the shifter/transmission or the shifter/body (not saying that's bad, just an OEM durometer choice), dampened stubs/sticks, aluminum box or arm castings, steel or composite spheres, and articulating linkages. Each has its own strengths/weakness with respect to specific hardware (pins, clips, bushing material or quality, etc), and design. All are designed to finish the race, for the most part. A failed spring or bushing here is on another level in comparison to that of a high dollar engine as much as nobody wants warranty claims.

    Regarding context - I personally don't judge the shifter in comparison to all the other cars out there but rather to itself. Ford gave the wheels, brakes, engine, body, a heck of a lot of attention that made it "better" in the view of many here. Yet the intern got to pick a shifter.:D

    If Ford suddenly started talking about how they have the best shifter on the market and broke it down for all to see, hanging them high in the air at trade shows and press gatherings people would notice. They'd understand something they never gave much attention to. The mechanicals would be on their mind as they traverse this lovely country, much like a vintage Porsche driver feels about their entire car when doing the same. And the race would be on, all the while the buying public getting something better. Sadly, this won't be happening as none of them cares to educate the buying public about exactly what resides beneath the palm of their hand. Too many other shiny things for the public to be excited about, they figure. And with the demographic growing ever "softer," NVH concerns dominate the stage anyway.

    So J (et, al), if the fact that you aren't unhappy with it and/or it feels good to you, Ford's (and the others) position on the matter stands and it will continue to be that way until they are challenged. The majority of the public probably feels the same way. Spam it is.

    :clap2:
     
  6. DrumReaper

    DrumReaper Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing people take offense to Epiphany for the turd comment but link him to promotion of MGW, when in actuality, the OP is the first person that attacked Epiphany and referred to MGW.

    I think a few of us have lauded the OP for his efforts. He attacked first, though, and why, I have no idea. The turd comment wasn't provocative but merely factual.

    I sat in a Civic Si yesterday while waiting in the Honda dealership. I put the shifter through its paces and even though the feel was overall good, I pulled it to the left and felt it lean a little. I could immediately tell there were polymer pieces in the unit.

    It's interesting how I never looked too in depth at shifters in the past but since feeling the difference between what most laud as "the best shifter in a Mustang ever" and the MGW that replaced said stock shifter, I now have an appreciation and the experience to note the difference between decent stock units and an almost mil-spec unit.
     
  7. J_Maher_AMG

    J_Maher_AMG Well-Known Member

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    Eh I guess it simply comes down to perspective then. Lots of other runners too that were a lot slower or "inferior" to Bolt for certain, but they are still superstar athletes compared to the norm in regards to the typical athlete so..

    I don't believe in celebrating mediocrity. That doesn't mean however that I believe in essentially shitting on an OEM for not going above and beyond what every other manufacturer is doing in every aspect. If you want that kind of effort, Koeniggsegg will happily build you a car. Every single car that 99% of people can or ever will afford to drive has compromise. If you could show that a Camaro or a Challenger or any other car company were doing things differently to show that Ford was simply taking an easy way out, I would hold a similar opinion in regards to them stepping up to make it better.

    But that isn't the case. So I see no reason to say one system is horrible when everyone else is designing similar assemblies or others that have different weak points. End of the day, they are never going to step up and make things better to your level of satisfaction. As you said, NVH matters far more for a production offering, and with automatics and DCTs reigning king today in auto sales, you aren't going to see mass market manufacturers redesign the wheel and cost them more money just to appease the 0.2% of their total sales (arbitrary number, though I would be surprised if it were that large honestly). And the bean counters can be thanked for that.

    Yes several other aspects of the car, mainly the magnetic suspension, brakes, and carbon wheels do have the "best of the best" type approach to them. But when you talk about "feel good is good", you are right. The vast, vast majority of buyers and reviewers and general public are perfectly content as is. It absolutely could be better, but it doesn't absolutely have to be, as they don't need to go above and beyond all other marquee's to improve something that people have little issue with to begin with.

    And that is what I mean regarding perspective, and why I think you are being perhaps a little too critical of this car's assembly when it is the typical norm of the industry. I'll also be honest in saying that I will probably be spoiled in the future as well when I go to buy another manual car, as I will be used to the precision and quality of my aftermarket shifter now. So who knows, I may have an issue or not be as pleased certainly using something less than what I am currently accustomed to. But I won't criticize something for being average; sometimes ya just got to understand and accept the "way things just are" :thumbsup:
     
  8. J_Maher_AMG

    J_Maher_AMG Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness, the original response showed no thanks or appreciation for the OP going out of his own to try and help others, but rather pointed out that "you can only fix a POS so much", essentially implying or meaning, whether intentional or not, that it was a nice try but that he was wasting his time or effort. It was the lack of anything else apart from the turd comment that spoke volumes about the context of the message, and as I mentioned whether it was Epiphany's intent or not (which I don't believe it to be so as he seems to be a standup guy without a doubt), that is what is written. And that is from a psychological/linguistic point of view.

    I certainly think that I will be somewhat in the same position or opinion as you in the future when trying/driving other manual cars. Becoming accustomed to something like the MGW will simply make poor feeling shifters unbearable. I never had an issue with the OEM shifter in regards to its feel, but it is always harder to take a step down rather than step up of course. Guess I'll have just have to get aftermarket shifters for anything I buy now so that I won't be disappointed or balk when it comes to driving the daily driver when it comes :D
     
  9. Tomster

    Tomster Beware of idiots

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    Good God. Geesh (across the board)

    This thread should be locked, not pinned
     
  10. stanglife

    stanglife Well-Known Member

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    [MENTION=19066]Epiphany[/MENTION]

    SO! I knew I'd eventually return to this thread. Short story, long:

    I've been itching to wrench on something again (to the point of considering selling the R - because there's just not much the car needs!) and getting an old Porsche project.

    I said earlier that the OEM shifter was the best I've had and I still stick by that, for OEM. On previous cars, I always bought a shifter because it was cheapish and a fun weekend project. I wasn't 100% convinced to part with my money but I did decide to go ahead and buy the MGW during a recent sale and I installed it a few weeks back.


    Here are my observations after resisting this mod for some time :)

    - OEM shifter looks..OEM. It's lighter weight (mass production weight) and it did actually feel lighter when shifting than the MGW. If you like more weight, then the MGW is a good thing in that regard. I don't see adding a weighted shift knob to the MGW, for me. The OEM has been described as crappy engineering and wimpy looking. I still say, even after looking at it, that they did a lot with a little. It doesn't have that motorsports look to it when you look at the parts in a pile, that's for sure -but it wasn't supposed to - it was mass produced. The foam strip woven into the spring.....that's another story...that screams of "we're done spending money on this", a hack of an afterthought to alleviate buzzing. I don't think I'd be so critical of that if it worked permanently but my car eventually started buzzing.

    - OEM shifter did develop some buzzing...pretty much anytime I left the RPMs sign at WOT. MGW is quiet.

    - I've noticed on some of my lazier downshifts from 3-2, I actually get 4th due to the MGW spring weight being a bit heavier. I'm not sure I like this but also realize that I'll probably get accustomed to it. You just need to be a little more deliberate on the 3-2.

    - The in-gear play between the MGW and the OEM seems about the same. This suggests that all of that play is internal to the transmission and there's nothing any shifter will do to reduce that.

    - MGW does give an instant feeling of DIRECT. The OEM did this well, too but the MGW adds...maybe 10% more to that direct feel.

    - I much prefer the pull up reverse vs the push down. I have an RS4 with push down reverse and THAT is how it should feel. The MGW is a little harder and definitely lost that OEM feel. Not a deal breaker.

    - Biggest thing so far. I didn't think this would resolve it and I know this "issue" still exists inside the transmission but the shifters more direct connection seems to hide it. Many report that if they don't really put it in first gear (oem shifter for me) that it can pop out of gear and grind. I've found that the MGW for whatever reason has fixed that issue. It's likely that it's just a bit more solid or the motion of the shift "gets" it into gear - but a welcome surprise. I would have (and might have) argued that this would never fix that issue.


    Overall a good mod. Maybe a little expensive but generally, I'd do it again.
     
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  11. Epiphany

    Epiphany Well-Known Member

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  12. tom185

    tom185 Well-Known Member

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    This is great feedback. I'm close to ordering the MGW (I probably will at some point in the near future) but I feel the same as you about the positive aspects of the OEM shifter. I'd like some improvement (the 1st to 2nd grind I get regularly is annoying - no pop outs or buzzing yet though) but the OEM is pretty good overall - better than the majority of sticks I've owned. Did you find that the OEM shifter smoothed out as it aged as some have noted?
     
  13. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    Grind isn't going to be related to the shifter, but rather how well the internal transmission components mesh/function when a new gear is selected (some people call it the synchros, but that isn't the correct name for the components that do the job). I think the Tremec box works really well when it's warm. Actually I should say when it's hot. On colder days or under light use some of the shifts are a little more crunchy. Also, the transmission shift quality does improve over time as it sees more use.
     
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  14. Minn19

    Minn19 Well-Known Member

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    ^This and I've switched to Amsoil fluid, which has helped with cold shifting as well. I've heard others have had good luck with BG etc...
     
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  15. stanglife

    stanglife Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the entire car is setup so that it performs correctly at racing temps and RPMs. Ever notice the piston slap goes away around 200+ degrees oil temp? This ensures that the piston has grown to a good fit at high temps and will not stick at high RPMs. Also, my trans is noticeably notchy when cold. Even when warmed up, these transmissions shift really smoothly at high RPM (smoother than lower RPM around town). Says a lot about what the car is designed for.

    Anyone ever own an old TKO? They shifted horribly above 5k.

    PS - the MGW will not fix the notchy shifting when cold.
     
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  16. sublime1996525

    sublime1996525 Well-Known Member

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    Good review of the shifter.
     
  17. tom185

    tom185 Well-Known Member

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    Good points. I agree that the crunchy/grind shifts are more pronounced when cold and does subside considerably when warm/hot.
     
  18. 65sohc

    65sohc Well-Known Member

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    Like 90% of those on this forum I've owned most of the modern Mustangs: '06 GT, '09 GT500, '13 Boss, '16 GT350. IMO the 350 is the only one that hasn't "needed" an aftermarket shifter. I drove a friend's 350 with MGW. The modest reduction in throw was essentially equal to the increase in effort; simple leverage. As far as I'm concerned six of one, half a dozen of the other. My stock shifter is starting to buzz. The dealer already replaced the shifter once so I'll probably do this free mod. I'll also add that the shifter in my son's '17 GT is as good as my Shelby's considering it is connected to an MT82.
     
  19. stanglife

    stanglife Well-Known Member

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    That’s a good explanation about the throw vs effort. I also agree that it’s not “required” but I’d say..if you’re itching to turn some wrenches, this is a solid mod that can be done at home and you can feel the difference.
     
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  20. 65sohc

    65sohc Well-Known Member

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    I suppose some guys can do this at home though it requires lowering the transmission. That isn't something I want to do lying on my back.
     
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