Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

[Burkey]

The issues in the report have not been addressed.

Not sure what you’re trying to convey here.
The report is clearly biased. Just reading the report reveals as much without even having to pull it apart in any great depth.

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[CJJon]

The issues in the report have not been addressed.

What issues specifically?

That EV's cost more to operate? Again, so what? Is that the only measure you are concerned about? Do you not see how odd it is that you post just a link to an opinion article with no other comments and then expect us to reply somehow to the specific thoughts in your head? Sheesh.

I'm thinking more and more your smartest idea was getting that vasectomy...

 

[CJJon]

Not sure what you’re trying to convey here.
The report is clearly biased. Just reading the report reveals as much without even having to pull it apart in any great depth.

Why bother? You can address all the fine points in the actual study and he will ignore them or call us names, stomp his feet, and cry like a baby.

He is clearly incapable of any rational discussion. His judgement is clouded by emotion (and perhaps his advanced age).

 

[CJJon]

Hello; As I stated before. Fool me once shame on you -fool me twice shame on me. So I answered and got fooled again, so shame on me.

No idea what you are getting on about here.

Is this back to that head/tails thing that you keep harping on that no one understands?

 

[sk47]

Hello; Here is an example of what the cost can mean to many of us with an EV. I decided to get a rider lawn mower last spring. Could not find many and the ones I could find had a jacked up price. As time went by they are even harder to find.
So I looked into an electric type. Well over twice the cost of a base gas rider. Even now a basic gas rider is $2000 or less while a electric is around $6000.
One other thing I found was the advertised run time. The ad stated it could run for so many minutes which sounded fine. Thing turned out to be the mower could hold six of the battery packs but was sold with only four. To get the full run time I would have to buy two more battery packs which are not cheap.
I have been able to keep gas lawn mowers going for 15+ years. Push mowers without any drive to be sure. So I would be into a second or third set of batteries if the mower lasted. I do not recall the exact battery pack cost, but something over $200. So at least $1200 for a full set. Maybe more. So $400 to get two to make a full six and in some years another $1200 as the first set goes bad. Not clear to me the electric mower will have a cost advantage over time.

I get the same sort of suspicion about the operating cost of a car type EV. That it will be close to the cost of an ICE and may be more costly over time. When doing a comparison I will insist of at least one battery pack replacement be part of the calculations to be fair.

So the advantage appears to be a reduction of environmental products. How might that add up is the question I need to answer. The ev or electric rider is clean enough in it's operation but has to be recharged. Around me that will be in large part from burning coal. Will be for the future. Not clear how much environmental difference. Lets say there is an advantage. How much advantage is the question for me.
There is the environmental stuff surrounding the batteries from digging out the rare minerals to recycling batteries. Still a lot of questions out there with no clear answers I can find so far.

I do not like the idea of electric vehicles. In my mind they are fancy golf carts. So two areas have to be figured out before I make the change. One has to be the cost. The other has to be the actual environmental benefit. The two are connected. I am not interested in making just a gesture at environmental help. I already do things to help environmentally. Things I understand to be of real benefit. If an EV or an electric mower are going to make a significant difference and not be just a fanciful idea some questions need an answer.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Study Calculates EVs Have Higher 'Real World Refueling Cost' Than Gas Vehicles (msn.com)

Not sure what kind of "math" is going on, and using SuC prices for all the operational costs is full of dumb. You can't make a blanket statement about cost and use the worst example as the baseline for comparison.

Michigan average gas price (according to AAA) is ~$3.60, consumer electricity rate is ~$0.16/kWh

A Model 3 LR (AWD) will do ~320 miles (realistically vs. the rated 353). That mileage cost, even factoring in a 20% charging inefficiency, ~$15.75

And let's say you're driving something close to the size, and pretty efficient, like a Camry (maybe an XLE/XSE for some feature parity ...) , that's rated at 28/39, an average of ~36MPG.

So 320 miles, would mean 8.9 gallons of gas needed, at a cost of $32.00

The additional complexity is that's not even a fair comparison as the Camry won't do 0-60 in under 4 seconds, doesn't have a sophisticated AWD system - so maybe a VW ID.4 or a Hyundai Ioniq 5 or something ...

Also this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-100-000-teslas-in-car-rental-market-shake-up

 

[sk47]

Not sure what kind of "math" is going on, and using SuC prices for all the operational costs is full of dumb. You can't make a blanket statement about cost and use the worst example as the baseline for comparison.

Michigan average gas price (according to AAA) is ~$3.60, consumer electricity rate is ~$0.16/kWh

A Model 3 LR (AWD) will do ~320 miles (realistically vs. the rated 353). That mileage cost, even factoring in a 20% charging inefficiency, ~$15.75

And let's say you're driving something close to the size, and pretty efficient, like a Camry (maybe an XLE/XSE for some feature parity ...) , that's rated at 28/39, an average of ~36MPG.

So 320 miles, would mean 8.9 gallons of gas needed, at a cost of $32.00

Also this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-100-000-teslas-in-car-rental-market-shake-up

Hello; I do not doubt the one to one cost of a MPG and Miles per charge will favor the EV. The question is how will it average out in overall cost per mile when all costs are added up. I figure it is fair to include a replacement EV battery in the calculation.
Replacement EV battery cost can be a big chunk of operating cost in eight to ten years. I get that many do not keep a vehicle over ten years as I do. Say you trade the EV in just before the new battery pack is due. I suspect a car dealer will have to take a replacement battery pack into consideration and will lower the trade in value. So eve if you avoid the replacement battery pack by a trade, it will add to the cost per mile.

I get that some do not have to think so much about the cost of things like vehicles. Good enough if a person can afford to ignore such things. However the costs of things is a big deal for many. I looked at and considered a hybrid back in 2001 when I last bought a commuter car. I decided to pass on the hybrids and got a ICE. I am still driving that car and still get over 33 MPG on overall average. My take on those who bought a 2001 hybrid is they paid extra for the vehicle and by now would have bought a second battery pack or two. I do not think my fuel cost put me on the wrong side of things.

I wrote of my neighbor with a Ford SUV hybrid recently. It is an older model and she is having a lot of trouble with the hybrid systems. The regenerative braking in particular. According to her even the dealers cannot fix it not. Parts no longer available. So she says her brake system does not recharge the battery any more. I have no idea if her issue is an isolated one. She is a college student on a budget. I think the idea of a used hybrid was appealing but the reality is not working out so much. I can fix anything about the brakes on my ICE car, but cannot help my neighbor.

 

[CJJon]

I put almost 300K miles on a Gen2 Prius and never had a battery problem.

You think you might need a transmission refresh at the same mileage?

 

[MaskedRacerX]

A replacement battery? OK, then let's include a replacement engine and transmission in the ICE vehicle.

Your assertion about the need to replace the battery is unfounded, it usage based - and even then, there are plenty of higher mileage EVs out there with reasonable capacity loss vs. the miles.

Some taxi type services have Teslas with 250-300K miles that still have 88-90% capacity, and that's older battery tech that's being replaced.

[edit]

Beat me to it

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Side note: I guess a moment is longer than 1 minute

 

[sk47]

I put almost 300K miles on a Gen2 Prius and never had a battery problem.

You think you might need a transmission refresh at the same mileage?

A replacement battery? OK, then let's include a replacement engine and transmission in the ICE vehicle.

Your assertion about the need to replace the battery is unfounded, it usage based - and even then, there are plenty of higher mileage EVs out there with reasonable capacity loss vs. the miles.

Some taxi type services have Teslas with 250-300K miles that still have 88-90% capacity, and that's older battery tech that's being replaced.

[edit]

Beat me to it

Hello; So are you two saying the batteries will not have to be replaced at some point? Miles and time can be different in the way each affects a component. A taxi can put a lot of miles on in a short time and that is impressive. For someone like me I will not be putting that sort of mileage on a vehicle.
Is there some sort of information on how often battery packs are actually being replaced?

 

[CJJon]

Hello; So are you two saying the batteries will not have to be replaced at some point? Miles and time can be different in the way each affects a component. A taxi can put a lot of miles on in a short time and that is impressive. For someone like me I will not be putting that sort of mileage on a vehicle.
Is there some sort of information on how often battery packs are actually being replaced?

Talk about twisting words...

No. No one is saying they don't need to be replaced. What we are inferring is that they actually can last many hundreds of thousands of miles = many recharge cycles. Further, I then made a comparison to transmissions that likely will need a replacement (and probably before 300K) and cost about the same.

Are you saying transmissions will not have to be replaced? Would you not buy a car if you thought that the transmission might need to be replaced at 300K? You would kind of expect that, no?

Every car wears out, even ICE. The ICE vehicle actually has more bits that tend to need replacing if you do an honest comparison. EV brakes last much longer (even if the tech evades you). No more fuel problems (injectors, filters, fuel rails, pumps, etc.) or air intake issues. Transmissions are more robust. Regular maintenance is much simpler or just not needed.

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

A replacement battery? OK, then let's include a replacement engine and transmission in the ICE vehicle.

Your assertion about the need to replace the battery is unfounded, it usage based - and even then, there are plenty of higher mileage EVs out there with reasonable capacity loss vs. the miles.

Some taxi type services have Teslas with 250-300K miles that still have 88-90% capacity, and that's older battery tech that's being replaced.

[edit]

Beat me to it

It hilarious how far people will go to stretch out the cost lol. If you take a Model 3 and an equivalent mid size luxury car like the BMW 330i the savings still favor the Model 3 even accounting for the cost of an battery replacement which is on average $5,000. The BMW has an annual price of $2,100 for fuel and the Model 3 has only $450 according to the EPA. You can do a quick calculation and determine what is higher over 8-10 years lol. Even if you account for the full price of installation of the battery it'll still be lower.

 

[sk47]

Hybrid Battery Replacement: When Can You Expect It? - Autotrader

“Some drivers experience failure at 70,000 miles, while others can make it to 200,000 miles without issue.”

“In our experience, hybrid batteries start to become a risk when they’re 10 to 15 years old and they’ve covered 120,000 to 150,000 miles. Yes, some owners will do a lot better than that. There are reports of batteries lasting well into the 200,000-mile range. But we wouldn’t suggest counting on those reports as the norm, especially if you’re considering a used hybrid and you’re on a budget.”

“Your first option is, of course, to simply purchase a new battery. In our experience, this can cost around $2,500 plus labor and taxes, though it’s more expensive in some models. Do this and you’ll likely get a decade or more out of your new battery.”

how often do EV battery packs fail? - Bing

“Electric vehicle batteries typically must be replaced every seven to 10 years for smaller vehicles and three to four for larger ones, such as buses and vans. Declining performance for an electric vehicle battery is evidenced by fewer miles of driving per charge and more frequent plug-ins by owners.”

How Long Should An Electric Car’s Battery Last? (myev.com)

“To be sure, replacing an electric vehicle’s battery is an expensive proposition. For example, a new battery pack for a Chevrolet Bolt EV is reportedly priced well in excess of $15,000, and that’s not including the cost of labor.”

“However, while an electric car’s battery pack will eventually lose its ability to hold a full charge, rest assured that it’s not likely to fail altogether, but rather lose its capacity gradually over time." “

“Be aware, however, that some automakers only cover the battery pack against a complete loss of its ability to hold a charge, which would be extremely rare. Others, including BMW, Chevrolet, Nissan, Tesla (Model 3) and Volkswagen will replace the pack if it falls to a specified capacity percentage while under warranty, which is usually 60-70 percent.”

“electric cars kept in the hottest climates can be expected to lose battery capacity a bit quicker than those living in more temperate areas. Extreme heat is the enemy of lithium-ion chemistry, which is why many electric cars come with liquid-cooled battery packs. Also, older electric cars having relatively short operating ranges may suffer quicker deterioration. That’s because draining most or all of a battery’s charge on a regular basis tends to cut into its capacity more quickly over time. That’s far less of an issue with today’s longer-range models that are typically driven for a fraction of their available capacity on a daily basis and are merely “topped off” at night.”

“Excessive use of public Level 3 DC Fast Charging stations (they can bring an EV up to 80 percent of its capacity in as little as 30 minutes) can also take a toll on a battery’s long-term performance. That’s because the faster an electric car is charged, the hotter it becomes and, again, that’s not battery friendly. However, a study conducted by the Idaho National Laboratory concluded that the effect isn’t particularly pronounced. The INL tested two pairs of identical 2012 Nissan Leaf models, with one set using 240-volt Level 2 home charging and the other exclusively relying on DC Fast Charging public units. After each was driven 50,000 miles, the difference between the Level 2 and Level 3 vehicles’ diminished battery capacities amounted to just four percent.”

“The bottom line here is that if it’s properly cared for, an electric car’s battery pack should last for well in excess of 100,000 miles before its range becomes restricted. “

Hello; I did two searches. how long will hybrid and how long EV batteries last. Found several links. Here are three. The $15K+ for a Bolt EV was a shock.
For me personally there will not be a lot of miles put on a vehicle. Likely less than 10,000 miles a year. So time will be the bigger deal. After the warranty period I will be on the hook if I am one who has a battery pack fail at 70,000 miles.

I very likely charge at home most of the time. My bigger issue will be range. I am 60 miles from the closest big town, Knoxville TN. I usually go to several places when I travel in the city, so easy 200 miles. I have done as much as 300 in a trip if I go to outlying places. To be comfortable an EV will need to go 300+ miles even in winter with heat, wipers, lights and radio on.

 

[sk47]

Electric Car for a Cold Climate | Driving Range - Consumer Reports

Hello; Found some more answers.

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