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Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

CJJon

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Ok, riddle me this. If that is your stance, then why not require the polo, the flu, the measles, ect. vax. TB and any other vax also.
WHY ONLY THIS ONE If it is in the name of worker/employee safety!
People are not stupid , they can see b/s when they are confronted with it.
Maybe because back when polio and measles vaccinations came to be people were not as selfish and willfully ignorant as they are now and a mandate wasn't needed.

What is the specific BS you are talking about? What is the real reason?
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Hobohunter

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According to all the beloved Israel study links posted here, the break through rate of the delta variant on vaccinated people is way more than 1%. The delta variant is magnatudes more contagious than the original alpha strain. Studies also indicate that unvaccinate people who are infected can shed more virus than someone who's been vaccinated and reinfected. Higher virus shedding increases risk of infecting others. So based on the science studies, it seems that unvaccinated people being among vaccinated people still does not reduce risk enough at this time. The break through rate is another reason why they are talking a booster shot ... which btw the Israel study (which the anti-vaxxers seem to latch onto) recommends a booster regardless if people are already vaccinated or already had Covid.
Per the CDC, there have been 15,790 breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalization or death, of which 3,040 died. Of those 3,040 deaths 2,631 (87%) were at least 65 years old. We are at 674kish deaths in the US since the start of COVID, that's some pretty strong indication that being vaccinated reduces risk. Obviously, the vaccine hasn't been around, or at significant levels since the beginning of the pandemic.
How much risk reduction is enough?


https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D76;jsessionid=6535BE6D43A346C0657162FB7565
 

Hobohunter

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I have.

Which part covers the right to employment on your terms? Again, you have every right not to get vaccinated. You will just have to deal with the consequences. Your 'right' doesn't mean you get to check out of society and do whatever you want and possibly infect or kill others.

Can't yell fire in a theater and all that...
My problem with these kind of analogies is that they don't really fit. Yelling fire in a theater is a conscious act, you intend to yell it. You can't intentionally spread a virus, in the same manner that you can intentionally yell fire in a theater. Obviously a person can try to spread a virus, but that's no guarantee that it will spread.
How many people do you know who's families had some people with symptomatic COVID and others in the same house, spending time together never caught it? I know a few. Yes, that's anecdotal, but it's not meant as proof of anything, just to illustrate my point above.
There was an analogy a few days back relating unvaccinated spreading COVID to drunk driving. It didn't work either because you can't feasibly be driving down the road after being near people who are drinking and become drunk yourself without having any alcohol.
 

Hobohunter

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Intentionally? How about recklessly?
Sure you can. But the problem is one person's level of acceptable risk is another person's level of recklessness. A free climber is perfectly happy being hundreds of feet above ground whereas someone who's afraid of heights might never climb past the first couple of rungs of a ladder.
I don't think it's reckless to be unvaccinated in public if you wear a mask and practice social distancing. I think it's overkill to require a vaccinated person to wear a mask, especially if outdoors.
 

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rick81721

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Catching up
Interesting that you deleted your post from earlier. I read thru it earlier but had to go out for a bike ride.

Don't recall all the specifics but you seemed to question the US government's legal authority to donate vaccines to other countries. Or to make any "charitable donations" on behalf of the American people. The authority is here - which has been in place since the Kennedy admin - USAID. They donate billions in humanitarian aid around the world every year. Specific to Covid vaccines:

https://www.usaid.gov/coronavirus

Regarding the specifics to vaccine donations, you also seem unaware that the US (and EU for the most part) are donating the vast majority of their vaccines to COVAX - an international partnership between WHO, Cepi, Gavi and UNICEF to procure and distribute vaccines to countries in need around the world. COVAX decides who gets the vaccines and when.

https://www.gavi.org/covax-facility...CTehTk1a8jfEvevLvPZpgklm0cXi7uxsaAlEqEALw_wcB

This in contrast to China and Russia who are donating their vaccines primarily to gain political influence. China has donated a relatively small amount of funding ($100 million) to COVAX. Not aware if Russia participates or funds them at all.

In any event, welcome back!
 

CJJon

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Sure you can. But the problem is one person's level of acceptable risk is another person's level of recklessness. A free climber is perfectly happy being hundreds of feet above ground whereas someone who's afraid of heights might never climb past the first couple of rungs of a ladder.
I don't think it's reckless to be unvaccinated in public if you wear a mask and practice social distancing. I think it's overkill to require a vaccinated person to wear a mask, especially if outdoors.
Bad analogy.

Also, acceptable level of risk is determined by a reasonable person standard. You don't get equal treatment for your own personal perception of risk if it bucks that standard.
 

Hobohunter

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Bad analogy.

Also, acceptable level of risk is determined by a reasonable person standard. You don't get equal treatment for your own personal perception of risk if it bucks that standard.
What's the reasonable person standard for Covid risks, and who set it?
 

CJJon

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What's the reasonable person standard for Covid risks, and who set it?
Depends.

Do you think it is reasonable for someone to refuse a vaccine and then assume they have the right to be in close quarters with others, potentially exposing them to harm? Is it reasonable to expect that your workplace is safe from such exposure?

What about all the hospitals and morgues that are overflowing? The abject misery this prolonged pandemic is causing? A reasonable person should be expected to do the right thing and get vaccinated. A reasonable person who had objections (for whatever reason) would not expect others to be put at additional risk and to demand equal treatment and access for exercising their right not to be vaccinated.

Try attending a Peanut Allergy Sufferers convention with a big bag of peanuts.
 

Hobohunter

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Depends.

Do you think it is reasonable for someone to refuse a vaccine and then assume they have the right to be in close quarters with others, potentially exposing them to harm? Is it reasonable to expect that your workplace is safe from such exposure?

What about all the hospitals and morgues that are overflowing? The abject misery this prolonged pandemic is causing? A reasonable person should be expected to do the right thing and get vaccinated. A reasonable person who had objections (for whatever reason) would not expect others to be put at additional risk and to demand equal treatment and access for exercising their right not to be vaccinated.

Try attending a Peanut Allergy Sufferers convention with a big bag of peanuts.
I do think it is reasonable for unvaccinated people to be in close quarters with others. People are free to get vaccinated, and take whatever other precautions they find reasonable when going out amongst others. The others out and about are just as free to take their own reasonable precautions. It's a two-way street.
What about overflowing hospitals? Sure, it sucks. I would say that a reasonable person should be expected to take reasonable precautions. If that means vaccinated to them, so be it. Otherwise, it's entirely reasonable to wear a mask. Maybe you think that people are obligated to take the highest precautions available, for every situation. I don't. We all make our own decisions on what risks we are willing to take. As we are on a Mustang forum, I would bet we're all fans of fast and powerful cars, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to assume they are not the safest option available for driving.

Try going on a tour of a peanut butter factory as a peanut allergic person. It's the allergic tour-goer's responsibility to mitigate their own risk..
 

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GT Pony

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Ok, riddle me this. If that is your stance, then why not require the polo, the flu, the measles, ect. vax. TB and any other vax also.
WHY ONLY THIS ONE If it is in the name of worker/employee safety!
People are not stupid , they can see b/s when they are confronted with it.
Look up what a world pandemic means. I'm sure if there was a world pandemic going on with polo, flu and measles, etc the reaction across the whole world would be similar to what's going on now. Or do you think everyone would just ignore it all?
 

GT Pony

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My problem with these kind of analogies is that they don't really fit. Yelling fire in a theater is a conscious act, you intend to yell it. You can't intentionally spread a virus, in the same manner that you can intentionally yell fire in a theater. Obviously a person can try to spread a virus, but that's no guarantee that it will spread.
So someone has the right to cause risk to other people just because they didn't intentionally mean to? I'm sure the crazy drivers that weave in and out of traffic at 100 MPH never had any thoughts that they are purposely going to kill others on the road by their actions. So does that give them the right to do that? And to expand, it someone actually tried to purposely spread Covid or any other potentially deadly disease they would be charged with a crime.
 
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GT Pony

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Sure you can. But the problem is one person's level of acceptable risk is another person's level of recklessness. A free climber is perfectly happy being hundreds of feet above ground whereas someone who's afraid of heights might never climb past the first couple of rungs of a ladder.
I'll use the driver analogy again. Every maniac that drives 100 MPH weaving in and out of traffic thinks his actions have an "acceptable level of risk", or might think it's not risky at all. Would they do that if they thought the risk was too high or they could hurt or kill somebody doing it? But everyone else on the road he's effecting will think he's being risky and dangerous. So since he doesn't think he's causing any risk, does he have the right to do so? The answer is, why do you think there are laws against those actions?

I don't think it's reckless to be unvaccinated in public if you wear a mask and practice social distancing. I think it's overkill to require a vaccinated person to wear a mask, especially if outdoors.
I have not heard if vaccinated people at work will be made to wear masks or if it will be up to each person. Might be up to each company to decide.
 

Hobohunter

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So someone has the right to cause risk to other people just because they didn't intentionally mean to? I'm sure the crazy drivers that weave in and out of traffic at 100 MPH never had any thoughts that they are purposely going to kill others on the road by their actions. So does that give them the right to do that? And to expand, it someone actually tried to purposely spread Covid or any other potentially deadly disease they would be charged with a crime.
The analogy doesn't really work unless these people are unknowingly driving 100mph, which is impossible. The only way your analogy works is if someone is out in public and knows they have COVID.
Of course I don't think that drivers have the right to weave in and out of traffic at reckless speeds. But I definitely don't think we should consider every driver to be reckless without them having broken any traffic laws, just because the possibility exists that at some point, for a relatively short period of time they might.
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