Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

[Burkey]

Then why does Ca have rolling black outs envery summer.

You need to look at reality and quit singing kum by yah.

Which part of - “parts of the US grid aren’t even close to “world-class”, which is less to do with the failures of technology but rather a failure of investment IN technology.” did you fail to grasp?
The infrastructure upgrades required to make renewables work PROPERLY costs money.
I can’t speak to the US on a state by state basis but I CAN tell you that the network in my region has had hundreds of millions of dollars invested in it, increasing conductor sizes, adding poles (because larger conductors require more poles to hold them up), alterations at the zone substations, addition of new zone subs, etc etc.
You could call it “jobs”.

You don’t want to get into an argument with someone who works in the industry, and is working in an area where solar farms are a massive enterprise.

I‘ve probably forgotten more about how this all works than you currently know.

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[K4fxd]

I‘ve probably forgotten more about how this all works than you currently know.

A 15 acre gas fired power plant makes the same amount of power as 50 sq miles of solar panels. What about the endangered rats? Sand fleas? Regular wild life? Homes for humans? Forrest?

What is the life span for those solar cells? How about the gas plant?

What a waste of land.

But hey, lets all sit in a circle around the pretend fire, don't want to add any Co2 to the air, and sing happy songs. ,

 

[Burkey]

A 15 acre gas fired power plant makes the same amount of power as 50 sq miles of solar panels. What about the endangered rats? Sand fleas? Regular wild life? Homes for humans? Forrest?

What is the life span for those solar cells? How about the gas plant?

What a waste of land.

But hey, lets all sit in a circle around the pretend fire, don't want to add any Co2 to the air, and sing happy songs. ,

I agree. They’re a waste of land. I’d much prefer that those cells live on top of existing structures, or better yet, replace existing structures. Eg. Instead of cladding your roof with steel, then putting panels on top, make the panels the actual cladding.

Again you continue to demonstrate a lack of imagination.
It’s as if a solution must be “perfect“ or it‘s “useless”.

Dichotomous thinking at its worst.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that the solutions are perfect. They’re IMPROVEMENTS.

You want to to talk about the habitat of the wildlife? Tell me more about the oil tankers that spew oil into the oceans?

What about the habitat that is destroyed each and every time we mine for coal? Yes, we need to mine for lithium and other minerals for these renewables, but the thing you’ve just dug out of the ground doesn’t just disappear into thin air, so that you need to do the exact same thing tomorrow...

One of these products has a level of recyclability, the other does not.
We are talking about harm minimisation, not perfection.

 

[Gregs24]

Hello; Not saying you are incorrect, but this is the first I have heard of energy consumption going down.

Here is the US split by production type

UK is a more significant downward trend for 15 years or so. Mostly attributed to LED lighting and more energy efficient houses / insulation incentives.

 

[sk47]

You keep making this claim without thinking about it properly.
You‘re only looking at one side of the coin - EV’s.
Now add in renewables and battery storage and try again.
Now add in how people will change their usage and factor in how this affects the maximum demand on the electricity network.

Practical example:
Working family. They have gas hot water, gas cooking, electric heating/cooling.
Mum gets home with the kids in summer, house is utterly heatsoaked. Whacks the AC on, just like every other mum. Massive spike in demand on the lines, all of it happening at more or less the same time

They go and put PV cells on the roof. They discover that they’re better off leaving the AC on all day long. There is NO spike in usage.
They then realise that they should swap their hot water to electric because the energy is FREE. They’ve now removed yet another drain on the grid and removed even more pollution. They might opt to do the same with their cooking...

They then discover that maybe a battery would be a good idea.
Their entire home is now producing vastly more power than they can use. An EV now makes sense.

It‘s not as simple as you propose. Nor is it going to work for every household in every instance.

I‘d also like to make the point that parts of the US grid aren’t even close to “world-class”, which is less to do with the failures of technology but rather a failure of investment IN technology.

Hello; You have some of it so very wrong. The peak power use in the summer is not a temporary spike for a few minutes/hours in the afternoon. It is a days long or more demand which strains the system. People do already leave the AC on all the time. In the four houses near me no one ever turns off the heat pumps. Never see a window open. Best some do is turn the AC or heat a few degrees when away from home.
There is some level of higher demand during the daytime in the summer and during the night in winter, but when it is hot enough or cold enough the demand is higher 24/7. This has been the pattern for several years. Last summer we had fewer 90+ degree days. Already this season we are predicted to have some 90 degree days starting Monday.

I am one of the few who will open the windows on mild days. I only ran the AC about eight nights last summer when the humidity was too high so it was too stuffy to sleep. Most think I am odd because I do not use the AC 24/7.

I have not priced solar panels lately but was under the impression they can run around $30 grand installed. I have no idea about a battery pack large enough to hold enough power to be able to run a house with all demand during the dark. since a car battery can be well over $100, my guess is the cost will be substantial.

I forget the percentage of Americans who cannot come up with $500 in an emergency, but it was a high % of people. Way too many live paycheck to paycheck. Not many have the extra income to buy a solar panel system.

In the winter I can have maybe nine hours or so of sun and it can be grey or snowy during the day. I live in a temperate climate zone. No steady wind either. So what am I to do during the long and cold winter nights? I will have to rely on the electric grid which already struggles with the regular demand and will have millions of EV's plugged in overnight so people can go to work in the morning. I and millions of others do not live in a sunny place like Australia.

 

[Gregs24]

A 15 acre gas fired power plant makes the same amount of power as 50 sq miles of solar panels. What about the endangered rats? Sand fleas? Regular wild life? Homes for humans? Forrest?

What is the life span for those solar cells? How about the gas plant?

What a waste of land.

But hey, lets all sit in a circle around the pretend fire, don't want to add any Co2 to the air, and sing happy songs. ,

If the world was run by you we would all still be sitting around a fire at night and sleeping in a cave. The rest of the world has moved on.

As it happens the life of a US gas powered electricity station is 22 years whereas solar is 40 years or so.

 

[Gregs24]

I have not priced solar panels lately but was under the impression they can run around $30 grand installed.

That would be a huge domestic setup. 4kW is what is generally installed on a roof in the UK which costs around £6k currently. 40 years life is not unreasonable. Ours broke even after just under 5 years.

 

[sk47]

I agree. They’re a waste of land. I’d much prefer that those cells live on top of existing structures, or better yet, replace existing structures. Eg. Instead of cladding your roof with steel, then putting panels on top, make the panels the actual cladding.

Again you continue to demonstrate a lack of imagination.
It’s as if a solution must be “perfect“ or it‘s “useless”.

Dichotomous thinking at its worst.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that the solutions are perfect. They’re IMPROVEMENTS.

You want to to talk about the habitat of the wildlife? Tell me more about the oil tankers that spew oil into the oceans?

What about the habitat that is destroyed each and every time we mine for coal? Yes, we need to mine for lithium and other minerals for these renewables, but the thing you’ve just dug out of the ground doesn’t just disappear into thin air, so that you need to do the exact same thing tomorrow...

One of these products has a level of recyclability, the other does not.
We are talking about harm minimisation, not perfection.

Hello; Do you think all fossil fuel use will be stopped. Do you imagine all oil burning ships will be replaced with ______? ( I do not know what could push a ship across the ocean. ) ( maybe back to sails). What about freight trains? What about heavy machinery, farming equipment and the like? What about the military?

What is on the table right now is forcing mainly one segment, personal vehicles and some light duty vehicles, onto an unproven system of personal transportation. Not that the EV's them selves do not work within some parameters, but that a move to all EV for that segment of an economy is untested. I can picture an EV wrecker having to wait an hour to charge between every run to get an 80% charge. If you mean minimalization in the sense of we will not be going very far very often, then I can understand. Again reading between the lines, it will become a "do without" lifestyle.

 

[K4fxd]

25 for solar 39 for coal 22 natural gas. I'm not buying that but the gas plant casn be refurbished, the solar cells get dumped in a land fill. Just like the blades on a wind mill. They last 10 years.

 

[sk47]

That would be a huge domestic setup. 4kW is what is generally installed on a roof in the UK which costs around £6k currently. 40 years life is not unreasonable. Ours broke even after just under 5 years.

Hello; This does not sound the same as what I have read about getting a solar panel system. Not sure what the exchange rate is for the pound, but it is more in dollars. So you think I can get a solar system which will run a house for around ten grand or so?

 

[K4fxd]

So you think I can get a solar system which will run a house for around ten grand or so?

Only if it is subsidized.

 

[K4fxd]

I've got solar; why is my bill so high?
https://runonsun.solar/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/residential-solar/solar-high-bills

 

[sk47]

That would be a huge domestic setup. 4kW is what is generally installed on a roof in the UK which costs around £6k currently. 40 years life is not unreasonable. Ours broke even after just under 5 years.

How Much Do Solar Panels Cost? (2021) | ConsumerAffairs
Hello; Looks like we are both correct. This link states the price range is between $5K to $40K in dollars. I guess it depends on what power level you pick. This is before the power storeage battery is added. I also think it may not be based on using the energy to charge a couple of vehicles.

And, as pointed out by another, this is with healthy subsidies. Up to 26% of some one else's money in TN.

 

[sk47]

I've got solar; why is my bill so high?
https://runonsun.solar/~runons5/blogs/blog1.php/residential-solar/solar-high-bills

Hello; interesting read. Do you know about any power companies that do not allow consumers to sell their excess power to the grid? I have read of this some time ago, but did not save the stories.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Do you think all fossil fuel use will be stopped. Do you imagine all oil burning ships will be replaced with ______? ( I do not know what could push a ship across the ocean. ) ( maybe back to sails). What about freight trains? What about heavy machinery, farming equipment and the like? What about the military?

No. I don’t think that’s realistic. I think technologies will improve in certain areas to lessen the impact until such time that better solutions can be implemented.
Think of it as a hierarchy. Good, better, best.

Again reading between the lines, it will become a "do without" lifestyle.

There are plenty of people who live in a “do without” lifestyle. I recently listened to a lecture from a man who spent a length of time in Peru. He spoke of how excited a child was when he could find a piece of cardboard to sleep under. He spoke of the excitement of receiving a pair of shoes, with no laces, the toes worn through.

Is it possible that many of us have become accustomed to a lifestyle of privilege?
When your concerns revolve around the ability to access water that won’t kill you, you could probably be forgiven for not wanting the rest of the world to make it even more difficult to gain access.

A little perspective might help here.

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