Running lean and detonation

accel

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Late comer here. 1st in your earlier statement you indicated that LTFT reads 10 and STFT reads 0, That would be adpative learning correcting through LTFT to bring STFT back to or near 0. That's how it works. LTFT is a long term change that corrects STFT. As you stated once LTFT goes above 25 then you flag a code lean/rich.

I see nothing about knock. What is the knock PID doing? I would expect it to be pulling timing like crazy. This along with the lean condition would point not to coils but to fueling and timing.

How many miles is on the car? Have you changed the fuel filter recently? I did not see anything mentioned about that skimming the thread. The car now needing more fuel may be starving due to a partially clogged filter where as the restriction was not enough on the stock tune to be an issue.

Another concern is UNMETERED air and not so much a vacuum leak. Your trims beign the same throughout the operating range indicate no vacuum leak. You say nothign of a high idle which is also symptomatic of a vacuum leak. So something else here to verify is that ALL conncections between the TB and the MAF are properly made and snug. Second make sure that the gasket on the TB is in place. Any place between the MAF and the intake that leaks is potentially unmetered air. A leak in this area woudl not likely be seen on a vacuum gauge either. Your LTFT's being the same on both banks also points to something in common with both sides. So you can rule out individual COP or plug or FI issues. That leaves you unmetered air, low fuel volume, and/or poor air and fueliing tables in the tune.

Best of luck. I don't know much but I know a little. Hope this helps.
Speaking of unmetered air... driver's side oil catch can line conducts air behind the airflow sensor.

I wonder if some engines push more ait than others?

 

ugstang17

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Stock COPS in general are very reliable and capable of supporting spark for applications making ton
Could it be faulty knock sensors?

Here's the link where they suggest a pretty simple check.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015...mination-9-ways-to-prevent-engine-detonation/

"you can test the knock sensor by tapping a wrench on the manifold near the sensor and watching for a timing change. If the timing doesn’t retard, the sensor may be bad."
KNock sensors will pull timing falsely through outward sources that crate false knock. During the install of a typical TVS system they need to be rotated slightly so that they do not make contact with the intercoller and crate this problem. However they wouould not be the source of detonation and pinging. THey are there to stop that. Additionally using them to control knock from an overly aggressive tune is not what they were designed for. Based on this it is doubtful. Hadflase knock been the issue (pulling timing though there is no detonation/pinging) then there may be a slight concnern. However in most tuning cases the sensors if proven over sensitive through extensive troubleshooting will be desensitized slightly by the tuner.
 

accel

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Stock COPS in general are very reliable and capable of supporting spark for applications making ton


KNock sensors will pull timing falsely through outward sources that crate false knock. During the install of a typical TVS system they need to be rotated slightly so that they do not make contact with the intercoller and crate this problem. However they wouould not be the source of detonation and pinging. THey are there to stop that. Additionally using them to control knock from an overly aggressive tune is not what they were designed for. Based on this it is doubtful. Hadflase knock been the issue (pulling timing though there is no detonation/pinging) then there may be a slight concnern. However in most tuning cases the sensors if proven over sensitive through extensive troubleshooting will be desensitized slightly by the tuner.
my concern is - on some cars knock sensors do not pull timing whereas obvious detonation exists.

again, we are speaking of a standard tune here - one for all.
 

accel

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20201110_084504.jpg


here's a picture of my manifold's internals. it is oily.

is it within norm or excessive?

the car is having passengee, but no driver side can. Consumes no oil. Passenger side does contain some oil by the oil change time, but not excessive. It is UPR can which I saw a lot of positive reviews of.

Driver side did have JLT can which was catching nothing and overall I was not overly happy with its design so I removed it
 
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Kong76

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Thats what my intake manifold looked like inside. Nothing major just a bit shiny. I ended up taking off my pass side catch can because I thought I could hear an air leak on one of the connections.

Didn't seem to matter cause I had pinging with or without it.
 


ugstang17

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my concern is - on some cars knock sensors do not pull timing whereas obvious detonation exists.

again, we are speaking of a standard tune here - one for all.
ON some cars...as in some S550s? or as in "Cars" in general? "Cars" with 1000 miles on them or "cars" with 1 gizillion miles on them? Been around this a long time and short of someone damaging the knock sensors because they were incompetent donig an intake swap or PD install I;ve never cime across this. I asked about knock ealrlier but OP has no access to knock sensor PIDs. Not to say it COULD happen but not probable.Basic trouble shooting technique leaves POSSIBLE faults on the back burner and looks at more probable faults first. ITs a proven technique that works. More reliable than guessing and way more reliable than just throwing parts at theproblem (AKA shotgun troubleshooting).

Would be nice to see the LAMBSE1 and 2 target numbers compared to AFR on each bank at a given RPM as well but likely not accessible either since something as common as the knock pids are not. But again the logical and probable conclusion would likely be either tune related OR fuel delivery overall (not individual injectors) as both banks are reacting in similar manner.
 
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This spring I will be going FI so to keep the engine healthy I might as well revert to stock and work on supporting mods.
 

accel

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ON some cars...as in some S550s?
Ford Racing Power pack #2 is so called "canned" tune. Same for all S550 GT 2015-2017. Topic starter discusses detonation conditions specifically while running this tune.

Certain percentage of FRPP users are having detonation even with high octane 93.

Rest of lucky ones are fine and have no detonation even on 91.

Once tune is reversed to stock the detonation is gone for all.

I think we should be looking at something that might be different/deviate between those who have this FRPP tune.

P.S. Ford Racing advices oil catch cans if you have detonation complains. Not sure about others but topic starter and I have OCCs with no difference in regards to detonation.
 
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accel

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Some observations on mine:

- no detonation while engine is cold
- detonation can be heard after complete engine warmup, - both oil and coolant temperatures are in stable positions.
- and the more I drive the car during the same run, the more detonation is exposed.

So in some sense it might be due to oil dilution problem as it would vaporize more on a completely hot engine.

But of course cold engine is also supplied with richer air/fuel mixture.
 
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Kong76

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Some observations on mine:

- no detonation while engine is cold
- detonation can be heard after complete engine warmup, - both oil and coolant temperatures are in stable positions.
- and the more I drive the car during the same run, the more detonation is exposed.

So in some sense it might be due to oil dilution problem as it would vaporize more on a completely hot engine.

But of course cold engine is also supplied with richer air/fuel mixture.
Same experience. Water pump was replaced a year ago. CHTs are better... 217ish - 204 now.
 

ugstang17

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Ford Racing Power pack #2 is so called "canned" tune. Same for all S550 GT 2015-2017. Topic starter discusses detonation conditions specifically while running this tune.

Certain percentage of FRPP users are having detonation even with high octane 93.

Rest of lucky ones are fine and have no detonation even on 91.

Once tune is reversed to stock the detonation is gone for all.

I think we should be looking at something that might be different/deviate between those who have this FRPP tune.

P.S. Ford Racing advices oil catch cans if you have detonation complains. Not sure about others but topic starter and I have OCCs with no difference in regards to detonation.
Exactly. THis is why I continue to be suspect of the TUNE and/or FUEL system and the latter only because he is seeing lean conditions throughout.

I had oil migration in my PD setup. Was not heavy but present. Pulled the head unit and the instercooler/intake. Clean the crap out of both. The tip in issue we were troubleshooting at the time was not improved from that waste of time but the tuner was hanging his hat on it as "he had never had this problem before"...nor were we having any detonation issues. But the tuner was still bent on doing this. So we did. Needless to say ir changed nothing and the tune corrections finally made improved the problem.

As you mention you are both running a "canned tune". So you get what you get. Not every engine is the same regardless of being built on an assembly line. Best of luck to both of you.
 
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Kong76

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Exactly. THis is why I continue to be suspect of the TUNE and/or FUEL system and the latter only because he is seeing lean conditions throughout.

I had oil migration in my PD setup. Was not heavy but present. Pulled the head unit and the instercooler/intake. Clean the crap out of both. The tip in issue we were troubleshooting at the time was not improved from that waste of time but the tuner was hanging his hat on it as "he had never had this problem before"...nor were we having any detonation issues. But the tuner was still bent on doing this. So we did. Needless to say ir changed nothing and the tune corrections finally made improved the problem.

As you mention you are both running a "canned tune". So you get what you get. Not every engine is the same regardless of being built on an assembly line. Best of luck to both of you.

Thank you for all your help.
 

accel

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Same experience. Water pump was replaced a year ago. CHTs are better... 217ish - 204 now.
OK. No promises here, BUT.

Yesterday I reinstalled FRPP2 following install instructions to the letter. Stock car, no even catch cans. I'm currently on crappy Costco 91 (was previously detonating the worst).

After the install it detonated pretty close to how it was doing it before.

I did profile re-learn. Which I did not do before. I wouldn't say that I felt much difference, but my drive afterwards was fairly short.

This morning I reinstalled passenger side catch can and then I did another thing that I did not do before. I also did not hear this as an advice from others. I removed frpp MAF sensors and replacrd it with the sensor from my stock intake. According to my research this is the same part for GT and GT350.

I think the detonation is almost non existent. I can still barely hear it when I drive hard as a very short sequence around 2000rpm.

Previously it would detonate in a wide range of rpms unless I was driving as a grandma.
 
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Kong76

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OK. No promises here, BUT.

Yesterday I reinstalled FRPP2 following install instructions to the letter. Stock car, no even catch cans. I'm currently on crappy Costco 91 (was previously detonating the worst).

After the install it detonated pretty close to how it was doing it before.

I did profile re-learn. Which I did not do before. I wouldn't say that I felt much difference, but my drive afterwards was fairly short.

This morning I reinstalled passenger side catch can and then I did another thing that I did not do before. I also did not hear this as an advice from others. I removed frpp MAF sensors and replacrd it with the sensor from my stock intake. According to my research this is the same part for GT and GT350.

I think the detonation is almost non existent. I can still barely hear it when I drive hard as a very short sequence around 2000rpm.

Previously it would detonate in a wide range of rpms unless I was driving as a grandma.

I never did the crank relearn either because I didn't get any error codes after install

I thought the frpp maf sensor was calibrated for the larger gt350 intake tube?

The stock sensor should have caused more problems. This is a weird kit. Should have listened to AED.
 

accel

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I thought the frpp maf sensor was calibrated for the larger gt350 intake tube?
Google it. Same sensor for GT and GT350.
 

 
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