Sponsored
Status
Not open for further replies.

amk91

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Threads
20
Messages
225
Reaction score
173
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
17 GTP PP and 2014 SVT Raptor SE
The Mach E is a pure Ford design, it shares nothing with the ID4.


The Mustang Mach-E is built on the Global Electrified 1 (GE1) platform which is a heavily reworked version of the C2 platform that is used on the fourth generation Focus and third generation Kuga/fourth generation Escape
Exactly, it's not VW related at all. That implied VW connection is a fallacy and not accurate.

I have to disagree. Ford may have a different ā€œplatform code nameā€, but itā€™s the VW ID4.

Take a very good, deep look at the VW ID4 from every perspective (design concept, interior and exterior) - itā€™s the basis for the MACH-E. Ford and VW are collaborative partners working on same/similar EV designs - the ID4 existed before the ME...

Go ahead, take a peak.... Iā€™ve posted the ID4 links before in other ME threads.

Grab online photos and post side by side and front/rear images of each.

ā€”-
Thats all Iā€™ll say on that subject, donā€™t want to turn this into a Mach-e thread.
ā€”-

Now go back to my post above showing the VW Aero1 images and compare the profile to the ā€œ4-door Mustangā€ profile image seen at the top of this page... you canā€™t tell me that image is not the same as the VW Aero1.... dimensionally and by appearance...
This is not accurate, considering Ford and VW had no agreement in place even prior to 2018. C727 was the original chassis code name for the compliance Ford BEV on C2, initiated in 2015. What became Bronco Sport (CX430), was a simply a Gen Y-targeted Ford crossover on C2 using the code C430 and initiated in 2015 as well.

It went from being a sporty, youthful road-oriented crossover to being a offroad-themed Bronco family product under Hackett in 2017. Ditto for Mach-E in 2017 becoming CX727.

Where did this idea that VW's MEB has any direct connection to Ford C2-based RWD GE1 come from? Do you have any proof that Ford had any existing partnerships prior to 2018 with VWAG? Particularly in 2017, when the program took a Mustang focus?

Otherwise, this claim falls flat and can seen as misinformation.

A future Ford based on MEB might be coming, but that vehicle is most certainly not the GE1 CX727 Mach-E.

The Mach-E is not a VWAG related vehicle and no one should believe that, as it was locked in before Ford made any agreements with VWAG.
Sponsored

 

amk91

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Threads
20
Messages
225
Reaction score
173
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
17 GTP PP and 2014 SVT Raptor SE
It most likely would be RWD and a more direct competitor to the Kia stinger. The A5 comparison isnā€™t worthwhile as itā€™s far less powerful in every variant aside from the RS5 and the A6 is a full blown sedan and not even close, and thatā€™s before you consider price.

the rakish coupe like sedan segment isnā€™t as saturated as everyone is making out. Your choices are Mercedes CLS(way more expensive), The bmw 8 series GC(wayyyyyy more expensive), the stinger(direct competition), and the Audi S5 sport back(still only 3xx horsepower and again... more expensive).

thereā€™s space in the segment for this.
I disagree. BMWs 8 series and the CLS arenā€™t direct competitionā€¦ Otherwise S7/RS7 and the Porsche Panamera would be considered competition as well. All these cars are larger than a Mustang, more powerful and way more expensive. Only a S7 is in range with its 450hpā€¦

At the moment the direct competitor is the Camaro which will be gone in the futureā€¦ Then there is the C63 AMG and maybe M3/M4, RS5. Besides, none of these cars will offer a V8 in the future so that would be a selling argument for a Mustang. A Stinger isnā€™t powerful enoughā€¦ Maybe a competitor for the Ecoboost but who cares about that?


However, there are some rumors lingering that the S650 might end up on some form of the CD6 platform, although these rumors were convincingly dismissed by @amk91 . Now, if the S650 ultimately does end up on some sort of CD6 platform rather than a heavily modifies D2C many of the recent rumors would fit into the picture:
  • ā€œmustang should grow in sizeā€
  • ā€œ4-door Mustangā€
  • ā€œAWDā€
  • ā€œhybridā€
Iā€™m not ā€œfamiliarā€ with any of these platforms but I would believe that ā€œMustang as a brandā€ would favor a platform that is more flexible than the very specific D2C. Why modify D2C and spent money on it when there is the CD6 platform that suits Fords needs? Besides, a larger Mustang would compete with the well selling Challenger and the range of German upper-class coupes mentioned in the first paragraph. Ford could easily justify a higher priceā€¦
The 8 series is definitely more expensive, but it's nothing more than a 5 Series Coupe with a fancier name because BMW did a bait and switch according to my cousin. It's basically ab overpriced 6-Series, a competitor to the midsize E-class Coupe and CLS that sits between the E and S sedans.

BMW is shamefully greedy in how they went about doing that, because all 8-Series models havr the same chassis codes as the canceled 2018/19 6-Series redesign.

The Audi is like a nonfactor to me, as it's not even RWD. Audi's MLB-Evo basis is north-south FWD like the old Chrysler LH cars of the 90s, but with standard Quattro AWD masking these roots.

Audi lags behind BMW and MB for this reason, as they stubbornly refused to switch to Porsche's MSB or a newer RWD architecture. Some A5s outside USA are actually FWD (Fronttrak), which used to be offered here.

A RWD 4-door Mustang with the right build quality and pricing has way more cache than any A5 or 4-cylinder C-Class, which has an 4-door coupe coming between C-Class and E-Class.

The Stinger GT and Charger are pretty much the only competition next to the M440i GC. Audi S5 has the power, but RWD it is not.

As for my comment, as I was just highlighting the reality of the situation. CD6 was ditched for cars in 2017-18, including 2-3 Lincoln cars.

However, it doesn't mean Ford is above dusting it off and making CD6 RWD capable for a 4 door 'Stang. However, according to some folks at Ford, that isn't even happening anyway. But can they be trusted either? Some of them have made claims against future vehicles, that turned out to be wrong and surprised them.

Inversely, Autoline keep contradicting themselves anyway and this 4dr just might not even be for 2023 or 2024 and maybe 8th gen EV instead. The same folks who said the current Mustang will continue until 2028, yet reported on S650 anyway...šŸ˜’


Well, yes and no in that respect. The S650 is significant enough to be next generation, but is it ground up? NO, it isn't.

That's my bad for not clarifying, point was that the CLS and 8 series are NOT competition, due to their price and power occupying the upper end of the market.

Assuming the Mustang keeps the V8 it would hold the middle bracket of coupe-like sedans.

I see it playing out like this:

High end: 8 series GC, S7, Panamera, Etc.

Mid Range: Mustang GC, (maybe) the eventual M440i GC, and the S5 Sportback. (all of which give the mustang that V8 marketing advantage.)

Lower range: Kia Stinger.... and I cant think of anything else, VW Arteon R maybe?
Mustang would really need to leverage its RWD heritage against the pretender in the S5 Sportback, which is a longitudinal FWD car with standard AWD to mask its humble origins. It shouldn't even be in the comparison, but Audi has done well enough to make it reach up there.

A lot of clowns today buy solely because of the badge and not the end product and driving experience.

The new M440i GC will be an ugly joke, the MRA-2 4-seater above the C-Class might be I4-only (or at best I6 hybrid), and Stinger may not survive past its current generation.

The 8-Series BTW is literally nothing more than a 6-Series with a $25-30k markup. No joke, as BMW developed that from the start as a 4th generation 6-Series. A model that was based on the 5-Series and parallel/below the 7-Series flagship sedan.

I heard BMW tried to seperately make a Rolls-Royce in BMW clothing V12 8-Series flagship (cut-rate Continental GT) and ended up canceling it due to bad business case and renaming the next 6-Series range to "8-Series" after the final design was finished.

That's why it's not so impressive and looks very Mustang and down market compared to an S-Class Coupe.

Both Ford and BMW were targeting elements of Porsche and Aston Martin design. One on the lower end and the other on high end. They ended up with similar results between S550 and G15.

I hate the current BMW 8-Series in principle (looks good in some ways), as it's the greediest farce by an automaker I have ever seen outside of a pickup. The original V12 8-Series was a legend in execution, but a failure due to poor market conditions.


Agreed, These cars are in a totally different class. Just because they have 4 doors doesn't make them competitors.


Unless there is a Shelby 4 door these "tuner versions are not competitors either. Now on the other hand the Stinger is definitely a competitor. Actually I'd be willing to bet a Stinger is sitting in the Ford design studio. The car meets all the requirement you would want in a 4 door Mustang. Yes the Stinger is a little underpowered but that doesn't concern us.

What does concern us is pricing. A fully loaded Stinger (2wd) is $52K, less than our current Mustang. That means a loaded 4 door Mustang with a V8 will most likely be close to $55/60k.
Just $60k? Haha, not when some of the most loaded MGT 401A cars cost more than that on B&P. Unless same miracle of (or cynical) cost-cutting happens with S650, be prepared to see some GTs reach up to $64k loaded.

When BMW introduced the 6-Series Gran Coupe in 2012, it was more than the 2-door. However when it was "redesigned" and cynically renamed 8-Series, the Gran Coupe became cheaper for some reason and the 2-door is now more expensive.

If Ford stretched the D5 (aka D2C) for this hypothetical car and it's a new offering, naturally I think it will cost more than the S650 2dr and it might reach past $65k in GT Premium spec as well.

At that point, how affordable is it still? My car was likely the most loaded pre-facelift S550 GT Premium ever built in MGM, according to many people before plant switchover to 2018MY. I ticked absolutely everything, including adaptive cruise control & rain-sensing wipers, PP, 401A, leather Premier Trim Recaros, NAV, smoker's pack, and my car was MSRPed at under $48k before X-Plan.

To get my car today is $$$ more and well into $50Gs. I knew years ago in hearing the direction planned, that S550 likely was known by TPTB to be the high margin Mustang, in expanding its appeal beyond the working man and into the cogniscenti, by biting at the heels of the 2dr luxury segments.

These cars are no longer the bargain they were, due to so many demands all over the place globally. S650 will either be an awful cost reduction experiment (to hold the line) or will be a high-priced nightmare (price shock), that getting a fully loaded V8 GT Premium 4/5 door with newer tech and engineering changes, will be well above $60k.

A 2021 sub-Mach 1 car w/10AT and PP1 retails at $59k with everything in it LOL. That new pony is going to be a pretty penny.

This is the problem I have with this rumor. As you say, amk91 has given us some pretty strong evidence that the CD6 Mustang was cancelled, and S650 will now be a heavily revised D2C (current) architecture. A 4-door based on D2C just doesn't make sense. The whole point of CD6 was for it to be a flexible architecture, just the sort of thing that would support a family of Mustangs.

Does it make sense for Ford to produce more ICE Mustangs for just one generation when, if the other rumors are true, it'll go pure EV from around the '29/'30MY??

All we can do it wait for leaks and/or the prototypes to be spotted. A 4-door will be pretty hard to hide.
Exactly, it feels like back to square one. They were all about initiating an all-new Mustang in 2015-16 called S650 and basing it on all new basis called C(D6R), in lieu of the threat from GM's Alpha Camaro SS outperforming the early S550 GTs and possibility FCA would be moving their LD/LA cars to the new Giorgio RWD architecture by 2018.

Once Mark Fields was out, FCA kicked the can further down the road with the Dodges, and GM's struggles with Alpha Camaro were becoming more apparent, Hackett felt scrapping an all-new Stang was of no consequence and reassigned S650 to the 4th redesign on the same platform.

Including the OG '05, 2010 was the 2nd redesign, 2015 was the 3rd, and 2023 will be the 4th.

The thing here is, when would Hackett have reapproved what he already canceled back in May 2017? To deliver a new car by MY 2023, you would really need a full 3 years to get that done right?

1 year to plan and study how to either stretch D5 or resurrect CD6 for car use, then about 2 years to finish engineering the given design. As far as I know, the first 4-door planned on CD6 was the 2021 Lincoln Zephyr, followed by a 2021 Town Car replacement a few months afterward.

2022 - 3 years = 2019, means that the lastest time that TPTB at Ford decided to work on a 4 door Mustang coupe independent of Mach-E, would likely be 2019 and at earliest, in 2017.

Until recently, I didn't take this 4dr rumor seriously, because no one in the know that I am aware of, has mentioned the existence of such a car.

Unless this 4dr is for Generation 8, because no real evidence exists of it yet and a lot of insiders as you and me know at Ford, keep shooting it down as hearsay, which is confusing.

At this point, Ford is at best in the concept stages of planning an EV Mustang that replaces S650. It's on the docket, but not even getting formal attention until at least 2022 or 2023 and won't even heat up with big resource investment until maybe 2025/early 2026ish, when the final design is probably released to engineers to prepare it for late 2028 intro.

Some Ford insiders (inaccurately?) claimed that Ford model codes are sequenced, but how so? U611 and U625 are for the CD6 RWD utilities 2020 Explorer and Aviator and the earliest they were assigned internally was 2013/14. P552 for 2015 F-150 was assigned in 2009, while S550 was assigned in 2009.

Yet U553 and U554 are the SUV equivalents Expy and Navi, even they were almost as good as dead in 2009 and had no future with Ford product planners.

Bronco Sport, Focus, Escape, and Corsair are all called CX430, C519, CX482, and CX483, yet clearly didn't exist before the above models. CX727 for the compliance BEV turned into Mach E, is the only one which makes sense with 700-numbering.

Bronco is U725, while new F-150 is P702, New Ranger will be P703, new Everest is U704, and P708 is next Super Duty. Each of these would be assigned some 5 or 6 years before release date, but it stops making sense when stuff like the new Ranger will came out after the 2021 Bronco and yet are numbered after it...very confusing.

There are no Fords I can find with the S7XX naming, in development, I cannot prove if that car even exists. A car on CD6 is not an S650 at all and only a Mustang in name, if on a different platform. It would have to have the name CD622 (for Zephyr), S622, or S7XX. I can't see how Ford would be able to stretch D5 at this point to accommodate rear doors.

...I think Ford is going to bail on any and all 'new' designs for ICE aside from F-series. And come 2033 and EV are going absolutely nowhere, they'll dust off CD6+ and resume manufacture of ICE as God intended.

The best way to save money in a decidedly uncertain future is to not spend any money.
I can only hope this happens, but the public might not agree. Companies are now beholden to the shareholders, government, and regulatory bodies. Not the buyers. "We will make for you what WE want you to buy and you will like it or catch an Uber..."
 
Last edited:

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,720
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
honestly, I'm probably more excited about the thought of a four-door mustang than I should be. I think about cars such as the BMW 8-series gran-coupe and that's what I envision for the next generation Mustang.
A 4-door performance sedan from Ford? Sure, that'd be great, but BMW 8-series is the wrong target for a Ford. Something in between Subaru's Legacy 2.5GT on the lower end and Chevy's SS sedan on the upper.

Both this 4-door car and you would be better off if it got the Thunderbird name (which actually has a little history with 4 doors). I mean, after all, you apparently don't much care for either the Mustang's original styling or its S197/S550 re-interpretations.
I actually want the new mustang to look alot like the Mach E.
Skipping over all that detail engine discussion as being overall having too much emphasis on complexity (a 3.5L engine does not need to be turbocharged for use in a 4-door sedan . . .).

who cares about a manual transmission these days.
Obviously you don't. But you should be aware that roughly 50% of Mustang GT buyers don't think the same way you do.


Also, the 4-door coupe variant should not follow the typical naming system of what Ford has been using for the coupe. No Bullitts and no Mach 1s. honestly, I wouldn't even do a GT variant. I would do a 3.0T ST, a 4.0T RS (with an RS R-Spec version), a 3.0T Hybrid GTS and a 3.5T SHO.
Why are you trying to throw so much of what a Mustang is away and replace it with utter blandness?

One of the reasons we still have the Mustang is because wiser heads have prevailed when it came down to considering risky moves (Probe, anyone?). Naming conventions like those may work for European marques (with a little Asian influence thrown in for good measure), but naming North American model trims the same way is being pretentious. Where anything home-grown is automatically considered inferior to its imported counterpart.


Norm
 

Cobra Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Threads
705
Messages
16,230
Reaction score
17,942
Location
NJ
Vehicle(s)
2018 EB Prem. w/PP and 94 Mustang Cobra
Exactly, it's not VW related at all. That implied VW connection is a fallacy and not accurate.



This is not accurate, considering Ford and VW had no agreement in place even prior to 2018. C727 was the original chassis code name for the compliance Ford BEV on C2, initiated in 2015. What became Bronco Sport (CX430), was a simply a Gen Y-targeted Ford crossover on C2 using the code C430 and initiated in 2015 as well.

It went from being a sporty, youthful road-oriented crossover to being a offroad-themed Bronco family product under Hackett in 2017. Ditto for Mach-E in 2017 becoming CX727.

Where did this idea that VW's MEB has any direct connection to Ford C2-based RWD GE1 come from? Do you have any proof that Ford had any existing partnerships prior to 2018 with VWAG? Particularly in 2017, when the program took a Mustang focus?

Otherwise, this claim falls flat and can seen as misinformation.

A future Ford based on MEB might be coming, but that vehicle is most certainly not the GE1 CX727 Mach-E.

The Mach-E is not a VWAG related vehicle and no one should believe that, as it was locked in before Ford made any agreements with VWAG.
Iā€™m not discussing timelines or when Ford or VW sealed deals, or when products were executed.

Iā€™m also not disagreeing with any facts you are proposing.

ā€”
My point:
Put the products side by side - exterior and interior, physical design, etc. the MACHE and VW ID4 are nearly (if not) identical - and that doesnā€™t remotely look by coincidence.

MEB platform shared connection:
https://fordauthority.com/2020/08/v...-platform-shared-with-ford-enters-production/

You could slap a tri-bar rear end and the Horse logo onto a VW ID4 and thereā€™s no difference.

Itā€™s the same as GM calling a Camaro a Firebird - shared platforms, almost identical except for minute changes.

ā€”-
That VW Aero1 I posted earlier looks awfully close if not exact to the supposed ā€œ4-door Mustangā€ silhouette at the top. Whoā€™s fooling who?

I like a challenging discussion.

:)
 

Bikeman315

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Threads
520
Messages
15,241
Reaction score
19,256
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
First Name
Ira
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT/CS, 2021 Volvo XC60
Guy's what does it matter? We are talking about rumors here. Besides the automotive industry has gone global so what difference does it really make which platform is being used and where it may or may not come from. Going forward the lines are going to blur even more so when, and if, it happens we can discuss the pros and cons at that point.

Now stop it before I have to bring the ruler out........ :cwl: :like:
 

Sponsored

CurtisH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Threads
0
Messages
89
Reaction score
55
Location
Georgia
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang Ecoboost PP, 2011 Edge
That VW Aero1 I posted earlier looks awfully close if not exact to the supposed ā€œ4-door Mustangā€ silhouette at the top. Whoā€™s fooling who?
That supposed ā€œ4-door Mustangā€ silhouette is not from Ford, so I donā€™t think we can use it as a comparison to the VW Aero1.

FYI: I do think the supposed ā€œ4-door Mustangā€ silhouette looks pretty good.
Sponsored

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
 




Top