Racing Brake 2020 GT500 Carbon Ceramic Brake Group Buy

[BillyJRacing]

Billy,

I think we all can appreciate your input on the GT500’s braking system. However, You aren’t in a position to cast doubt on Racing Brakes products because you have no first hand knowledge or performance use of them. I’ve encouraged you to contact Racing Brake and have a high level conversation with Warren about is engineering process. He has tons of experience and builds CCB setups for Porsche, BMW, Chevy, Tesla, and several other brands. All of which run successfully, including one of our members JAJ’s GT350.

There are zero grounds that I know of to bring up any type of safety concerns for the CCB GT500. RB’s kits have been tested on the Nissan GTR and Track Hawk which boast a very similar weight and power to the GT500, if not more. Zero issues or concerns.

You bring up an interesting point about the GT500 brakes never overheating in a tank of gas. The few of us that have tracked the GT500 know that it has limited run time due to enormous fuel consumption. You will likely need gas before you ever get to the point of finding out the limit of the brakes, which works as an advantage to the carbon setup as well. These carbon ceramic brake and track pad combination are specifically engineered to have a higher heat resistance and increase longevity.

The Carbon Ceramic Brakes do provide a benefit, otherwise OEM’s such as Porsche, Ferrari, and Mercedes would not have developed them for their top tier cars. They are a higher cost in consumable, but the Carbon Fiber wheels are as well.

I hope that when you reply back to this thread you have actual data or information gained from speaking with Warren at Racing Brake. As opposed to throwing out claims of safety or materials concerns that have no foundation.

Given your racing background I thought you would be more interested in personally testing out a new braking system to see it’s merit, as opposed to scaring everyone into keeping it stock. You did a great job with the engineering man, nobody is trying to take that away from you.

FYI this GTR makes 1124 HP to the wheel. It doesn’t have issues starting, or stopping.

Depending on who produces their rotors, I very well may have used them. Keep in mind the carbon ceramic brake manufacturing community is VERY small.

Thermal capacity is a material property, not an opinion. It is impossible for carbon ceramic rotors to equal a steel rotor from a thermal capacity standpoint. That's just a fact. That's also the reason carbon ceramic rotors are larger than their steel counterparts -which really isn't possible in the GT500.

Let me know when RB does the same performance and durability testing that Ford does.

The benefit of Carbon Ceramic brakes is reduced unsprung and rotational weight and reduced gyroscopic effect. Carbon wheels offer a greater benefit as well as a stiffer wheel, which also greatly improves handling and grip. Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, etc... use larger CC rotors than the steel iron 'base' brakes, as mentioned. Additional benefits are reduced brake dust which is beneficial for street cars. There's a reason Carbon Ceramic brakes aren't raced professionally and don't really hold up well in Ferrari Challenge race cars.

A "concern" is absolutely founded. Until proven otherwise, a concern is just as credible and justified as claiming that it's safe and durable. A tuner car with a lot of power doesn't mean anything. Neither does a hill-climb car or HPDE guys. Show me a car that competes in 30 min+ races that doesn't have issues and has proven benefits. That's more credible.

I test brakes (including carbon ceramic) all the time. A LOT of engineering, time, and testing goes into making the GT350 & GT500's brakes hold up to driving at 10/10ths for hours on end with no fade or issues. Going to a fundamentally lower thermal capacity rotor does pose obvious problems. Especially depending on where and who is making the rotors. "I" didn't engineer the brakes; Ford and Brembo engineers did and they're proven, and work. The GT500's brakes doesn't "need" to be upgraded for track use; unlike the 2013-14 GT500. If RB was interested in having me test them; they know how to get a hold of me.

I know you're in the business of selling these brakes and to clarify: I'm not here to badmouth RB, but rather reiterate that the OEM brakes won't overheat and fade, clarify misunderstandings of carbon brakes, and point out the potential and fundamental issues with replacing an iron rotor with the same size carbon ceramic rotor. I've already stated that on the street and "On track where 99% of owners are 5-10 seconds off the ability of the car, it might still be fine." With a proper education and understanding of the positives and negatives; people can make the best decisions.

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[V00D00]

i want these, very badly. Thats because my use is well within carbons capabilities. Love the idea of dropping another 40lbs rotational, AND less dust on these badass wheels? absoloutly.

 

[kilobravo]

I must not be driving (or braking) enough, Steve as I haven't noticed any dust, really.

 

[Tomster]

Depending on who produces their rotors, I very well may have used them. Keep in mind the carbon ceramic brake manufacturing community is VERY small.

Thermal capacity is a material property, not an opinion. It is impossible for carbon ceramic rotors to equal a steel rotor from a thermal capacity standpoint. That's just a fact. That's also the reason carbon ceramic rotors are larger than their steel counterparts -which really isn't possible in the GT500.

Let me know when RB does the same performance and durability testing that Ford does.

The benefit of Carbon Ceramic brakes is reduced unsprung and rotational weight and reduced gyroscopic effect. Carbon wheels offer a greater benefit as well as a stiffer wheel, which also greatly improves handling and grip. Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, etc... use larger CC rotors than the steel iron 'base' brakes, as mentioned. Additional benefits are reduced brake dust which is beneficial for street cars. There's a reason Carbon Ceramic brakes aren't raced professionally and don't really hold up well in Ferrari Challenge race cars.

A "concern" is absolutely founded. Until proven otherwise, a concern is just as credible and justified as claiming that it's safe and durable. A tuner car with a lot of power doesn't mean anything. Neither does a hill-climb car or HPDE guys. Show me a car that competes in 30 min+ races that doesn't have issues and has proven benefits. That's more credible.

I test brakes (including carbon ceramic) all the time. A LOT of engineering, time, and testing goes into making the GT350 & GT500's brakes hold up to driving at 10/10ths for hours on end with no fade or issues. Going to a fundamentally lower thermal capacity rotor does pose obvious problems. Especially depending on where and who is making the rotors. "I" didn't engineer the brakes; Ford and Brembo engineers did and they're proven, and work. The GT500's brakes doesn't "need" to be upgraded for track use; unlike the 2013-14 GT500. If RB was interested in having me test them; they know how to get a hold of me.

I know you're in the business of selling these brakes and to clarify: I'm not here to badmouth RB, but rather reiterate that the OEM brakes won't overheat and fade, clarify misunderstandings of carbon brakes, and point out the potential and fundamental issues with replacing an iron rotor with the same size carbon ceramic rotor. I've already stated that on the street and "On track where 99% of owners are 5-10 seconds off the ability of the car, it might still be fine." With a proper education and understanding of the positives and negatives; people can make the best decisions.

That's all I needed to hear.

I think that people are considering this route because the car is heavy. This was going to be one of my strategies to bring the car down into the 3800# range. I have seen other manufacturers use carbon brakes and wondered why Ford didn't. The best I could gather was that it was due to the cost and development.

I appreciate and value your input.

For those who don't know who this guy is, he is/was the development driver for Ford and has been involved in projects such as the GT, GT350, GT500. Oh, and he was a driver for Ford racing the GT at Le Mans. When I met him at the Daytona Speedway, there were many questions I wanted to ask him, but in the moment it was all about driving. He is as hard on the brakes as I am at that track. Based on his advice, I will not proceed with carbon brake upgrade. When Billy says its ok to use these rotors, I will be the first one in line to get a set.

Thanks Billy.

 

[marklboris]

I ordered a complete set (front and rear rotors and street pads) and if I get time, will be installing them this weekend. Went with their street pads because they are supposed to have a pedal feel similar to the OEM iron rotors and don't require the heating up factor.

Unlike many here, I will not be tracking this car and it will never see very high speeds. What is more important to me is the handling of a car and reducing the unsprung weight. This is why I went with forged aluminum wheels which dropped the weight over the OEM wheels substantially and I am getting this carbon ceramic brake kit. I would have not had an issue getting the OEM GT500 carbon fiber wheels however after reading here about how easily they damage and costly they are to repair, I was not interested. The two roads before my home are gravel and I can just see CF wheels getting damaged.

KB, you are right, you can't be driving your car much if you don't see brake dust or like we discussed before, you live in a flat area and not much need for braking. I changed my pads to G-Loc GS-1's and now I have about 20% of the dust I had with the OEM pads. I live in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and being very hilly with lots of curvy roads, I use my brakes quite a bit (very spirited mountain driving) and I am forever cleaning the wheels and calipers. I am very fussy about keeping my car and all of it's parts clean and looking forward to having even less brake dust and certainly not the black sticky kind. My wheels and calipers are ceramic coated and the dust from the GS-1's wash off much easier than the dust from the OEM pads. Cannot wait to see what the carbon ceramic brakes do.

 

[kilobravo]

Well Mark, one thing you can say about South Texas is, it's FLAT________. :-) So, I honestly don't know if I'm going fast enough or braking hard enough. <chuckling> But whatever the reason, I'm most happy not to have to deal with that grimy stuff. Been doing that for too many years but at least on our vehicles, it seems to have diminished appreciably since the 90's. I remember buying dust covers for an old Mazda 626 I think it was.

However, if I DO start to see it, I may very well go with those GS-1's, thanks for the tip.

Meanwhile, I wish you luck on eliminating the infuriating problem for good. :-)

 

[Twisted O CFTP]

That’s great to hear, coming directly from someone involved in the development. I re-read the previous posts and forgot that this discussion was more about reducing unsprung weight than increasing brake performance. I’m looking forward to seeing/hearing the GT500 roar around Sebring this year

Depending on who produces their rotors, I very well may have used them. Keep in mind the carbon ceramic brake manufacturing community is VERY small.

Thermal capacity is a material property, not an opinion. It is impossible for carbon ceramic rotors to equal a steel rotor from a thermal capacity standpoint. That's just a fact. That's also the reason carbon ceramic rotors are larger than their steel counterparts -which really isn't possible in the GT500.

Let me know when RB does the same performance and durability testing that Ford does.

The benefit of Carbon Ceramic brakes is reduced unsprung and rotational weight and reduced gyroscopic effect. Carbon wheels offer a greater benefit as well as a stiffer wheel, which also greatly improves handling and grip. Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, etc... use larger CC rotors than the steel iron 'base' brakes, as mentioned. Additional benefits are reduced brake dust which is beneficial for street cars. There's a reason Carbon Ceramic brakes aren't raced professionally and don't really hold up well in Ferrari Challenge race cars.

A "concern" is absolutely founded. Until proven otherwise, a concern is just as credible and justified as claiming that it's safe and durable. A tuner car with a lot of power doesn't mean anything. Neither does a hill-climb car or HPDE guys. Show me a car that competes in 30 min+ races that doesn't have issues and has proven benefits. That's more credible.

I test brakes (including carbon ceramic) all the time. A LOT of engineering, time, and testing goes into making the GT350 & GT500's brakes hold up to driving at 10/10ths for hours on end with no fade or issues. Going to a fundamentally lower thermal capacity rotor does pose obvious problems. Especially depending on where and who is making the rotors. "I" didn't engineer the brakes; Ford and Brembo engineers did and they're proven, and work. The GT500's brakes doesn't "need" to be upgraded for track use; unlike the 2013-14 GT500. If RB was interested in having me test them; they know how to get a hold of me.

I know you're in the business of selling these brakes and to clarify: I'm not here to badmouth RB, but rather reiterate that the OEM brakes won't overheat and fade, clarify misunderstandings of carbon brakes, and point out the potential and fundamental issues with replacing an iron rotor with the same size carbon ceramic rotor. I've already stated that on the street and "On track where 99% of owners are 5-10 seconds off the ability of the car, it might still be fine." With a proper education and understanding of the positives and negatives; people can make the best decisions.

I just completed 5 25 minute sessions at Sebring raceway with the track pack GT500 Just to be clear I also race Superbikes and I’m at advanced level at driving here is my take after all day at Sebring with outside temps reaching 93

The Gt500 after all day pushing the car meaning very late braking at markers and coming from speeds of 135 to 155 on back stretch absolutely no brake fade brakes are extremely solid I had a Porsche 911 gts before this and the brakes on the 500 outshines the Porsche Sebring is extremely hard on the brakes the the 500 shines to let you guys know with the 2.85 grip tech pulley Lethal race pipes 3 inch x pipe and a palm beach Ken dyno tune there was absolutely no car or race car that could keep up with the 500 no bs at least a 10 to 20 car lead once getting up to speed and that was everything on track the same goes when accelerating out of turn 7 were cars could hang is in the tighter turns that are slower

 

[Epiphany]

Five 25 minute sessions. Curious, how much fuel did you burn up?

 

[AMBJR]

Five 25 minute sessions. Curious, how much fuel did you burn up?

They were on "0" to go, so I would say about 15 gallons!!!

 

[Epiphany]

My last time out in Charlotte I saw ~45 miles to empty on the dash as we got back onto the track. IIRC, three laps later and I was at zero miles to empty. I got off the track and made my way to the infield garage and was told I'd make it back to the school's garage. So there was definitely something left. I'm just glad I looked as I really didn't want to run dry mid-banking on the oval at speed.

This thing is a 70's era gas pig. And I wouldn't change it for the world.

 

[Twisted O CFTP]

Five 25 minute sessions. Curious, how much fuel did you burn up?

I ran VP 98 octane fuel about a half to 3/4 of tank each session the guy next to me running in same group had a porsche 911 gt3 he only filled up once with the extended fuel tank of 23 gallons however the gt3 absolutely got left in the dust anytime I accelerated out of a turn or straights honestly the 500 is super fast the brakes are so good that I actually was braking too early The brakes are excellent just wanted to put that out there I have video ill post in a few days of the 500 on the track at high pace

 

[Tomster]

Wow, those are some long one sentence posts.

 

[50 Deep]

Depending on who produces their rotors, I very well may have used them. Keep in mind the carbon ceramic brake manufacturing community is VERY small.

Thermal capacity is a material property, not an opinion. It is impossible for carbon ceramic rotors to equal a steel rotor from a thermal capacity standpoint. That's just a fact. That's also the reason carbon ceramic rotors are larger than their steel counterparts -which really isn't possible in the GT500.

Let me know when RB does the same performance and durability testing that Ford does.

The benefit of Carbon Ceramic brakes is reduced unsprung and rotational weight and reduced gyroscopic effect. Carbon wheels offer a greater benefit as well as a stiffer wheel, which also greatly improves handling and grip. Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, etc... use larger CC rotors than the steel iron 'base' brakes, as mentioned. Additional benefits are reduced brake dust which is beneficial for street cars. There's a reason Carbon Ceramic brakes aren't raced professionally and don't really hold up well in Ferrari Challenge race cars.

A "concern" is absolutely founded. Until proven otherwise, a concern is just as credible and justified as claiming that it's safe and durable. A tuner car with a lot of power doesn't mean anything. Neither does a hill-climb car or HPDE guys. Show me a car that competes in 30 min+ races that doesn't have issues and has proven benefits. That's more credible.

I test brakes (including carbon ceramic) all the time. A LOT of engineering, time, and testing goes into making the GT350 & GT500's brakes hold up to driving at 10/10ths for hours on end with no fade or issues. Going to a fundamentally lower thermal capacity rotor does pose obvious problems. Especially depending on where and who is making the rotors. "I" didn't engineer the brakes; Ford and Brembo engineers did and they're proven, and work. The GT500's brakes doesn't "need" to be upgraded for track use; unlike the 2013-14 GT500. If RB was interested in having me test them; they know how to get a hold of me.

I know you're in the business of selling these brakes and to clarify: I'm not here to badmouth RB, but rather reiterate that the OEM brakes won't overheat and fade, clarify misunderstandings of carbon brakes, and point out the potential and fundamental issues with replacing an iron rotor with the same size carbon ceramic rotor. I've already stated that on the street and "On track where 99% of owners are 5-10 seconds off the ability of the car, it might still be fine." With a proper education and understanding of the positives and negatives; people can make the best decisions.

Racing Brake has done extensive research and analysis for their components. You can see the below data chart that will help people understand the differences between the two compounds, as prepared by Warren himself when initially developing his Porsche components back in 2015. This level of scientific analysis is what has been used to engineer all of the brake upgrades he produces:

Carbon Ceramic Brake Demystified

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-g...mystified.html

Shared with you is research I have done for our CCM brake development.

I have been reading hundreds of threads in this and other forums about "pccb" or not "pccb" or something to that nature, and for sure there are many more to come, but I have yet to see a fact sheet comparing these two type of rotor materials:

Carbon Ceramic - Known as pccb (Porsche Carbon Ceramic Brake)
Cast Iron - Commonly referred to as "Steel"

So here it is.

Data source: http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

This chart with my comment and note should satisfy most of your query for a clear and true understanding between two type of rotor material, and their respective advantage and disadvantage which hopefully can help you make a better decision.

Analysis is based on the data published by SGL (Now owned by Brembo) and my reference from various material data book. My comment was duly verified by Geoff Whitfield - Engineering Manager of Surface Transforms.

This presentation is deemed to be accurate at the time of publishing.

If you still have question please feel free to address, in the meantime please keep the discussion focused on the material fundamental and their respective characteristics.

For those who are interested in learning more, we have a more comprehensive collection on CCM including mfg process and experiment data etc. here:

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484

Furthermore.....

Racing brake is prepared to put its components to a test where it matters most, on track. RB will provide complete set of its CCB for the GT500, GT350, or BOTH for actual on track testing, by you, Billy Johnson. You name the time and location of the testing so the components can be there in time for you to examine, properly burnish, and run. I will book a flight to be there at the track as well. RB is not asking you to do track the components because it has any doubt in the engineering. It is not something they will be paying you for. But they do want to let everyone know this setup has been engineered for the highest level of performance. If someone of your experience has a doubt, they want to remove that doubt. While also taking the data to make the setup better, if needed.

I will send you a DM to arrange for the testing to occur. Assuming your goal here is to truly help enthusiasts this should be the perfect opportunity to make that happen. If you are unable we will still look to secure a comparable driver to do the same.

 

[Weee500]

Daayyyummmmm

 

[Tomster]

Ok, now who's gonna pony up the car? Lol

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