Procharger D1 HO Kit Dyno Chart 4.1 Pulley - Flat power after 6400 RPM

[Toothless]

Here is the one I was talking about that looks just like mine. Tuned by Ken B.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1463519&postcount=4

And that one is on E85...

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[ProChargerTECH]

But there is no good reason the Centri cars shouldnt make power like the PD cars. The PD cars will pull and make power increasingly with RPM. The Centri blowers dont. Unless you keep the boost down.

I have graphs here from our dyno, and other peoples dyno's that don't do it with a centri. (even at higher boost levels)

I don't believe Paxton's are doing it.

I have seen it on nearly every single F/I system.


But then again, here is an example I did at my buddies shop.
Both cars as identical as could be.

LINKY LINKY

Would you HONESTLY feel the difference between these two cars?
NOPE... not at all. Shift at 7,300 no difference at all, and 10hp?
Nobodies "butt dyno" is that calibrated LOL

 

[Toothless]

I have graphs here from our dyno, and other peoples dyno's that don't do it with a centri. (even at higher boost levels)



I have seen it on nearly every single F/I system.


But then again, here is an example I did at my buddies shop.
Both cars as identical as could be.

LINKY LINKY

Would you HONESTLY feel the difference between these two cars?
NOPE... not at all. Shift at 7,300 no difference at all, and 10hp?
Nobodies "butt dyno" is that calibrated LOL

If you zoom in on the ProCharger dyno chart in that LINKY LINKY above. Zoom so HP (vertical axis) is stretched out. Show 100 to 600 hp on vertical axis, you will even see that it falls off or flatlines at 6800 RPM. I had some of mine we looked at like that (short vertical axis when plot hp graph) and you cant see the flat line.

HP maxes at 6650 on ProCharger car. PD car peaks as 7482 RPM.

But you are correct. You cant feel the flatline. If you dont dyno your car, NO ONE would ever know you arent climbing in power past 6700 RPM. But you are leaving HP on the table above 6700 RPM, compared to the PD blower.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

If you zoom in on the ProCharger dyno chart in that LINKY LINKY above. Zoom so HP (vertical axis) is stretched out. Show 100 to 600 hp on vertical axis, you will even see that it falls off or flatlines at 6800 RPM. I had some of mine we looked at like that (short vertical axis when plot hp graph) and you cant see the flat line.

HP maxes at 6650 on ProCharger car. PD car peaks as 7482 RPM.

I know that car flat lines..... LOL.

Its on GARBAGE gas.... 91 "winter blend" (pulling timing down to 15 degrees)

That same car makes 640 rwhp when its on summer fuel. ;)
Same tune, yet runs 20/21 degrees then.
I will have to dig up the graphs... give me a bit.

 

[Toothless]

I know that car flat lines..... LOL.

Its on GARBAGE gas.... 91 "winter blend" (pulling timing down to 15 degrees)

That same car makes 640 rwhp when its on summer fuel. ;)
Same tune, yet runs 20/21 degrees then.
I will have to dig up the graphs... give me a bit.

Thats some serious bad gas.. :doh:

On all my runs with and without flatline. The timing was close on all the runs. Above 6500 RPM, it was 18 to 20 degrees I believe.

Did you see the Ken B tuned Vortech dyno chart above? Made serious HP on E85 but flatlines HORRIBLY, just like mine did on Lund tune. That had to be with serious aggressive timing on E85.

On That manual trans car, I think it is similiar to my manual trans car. It doesnt flatline much because the boost is lower. The 15 degrees of timing makes sense as boost rises with RPM on the ProCharger. It couldnt maintain ignition timing due to higher cylinder pressure. I dont think that is the same issue. Up the boost on that baby and then I think you will flatline even when on Summer gas.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Thats some serious bad gas.. :doh:

Welcome to KS....


Here is the runs bone stock on 93, and with blower on 93.
Same kit, Same Boost, same tune, as the other dyno...
Yes the boost number varies because of the pressure transducers used on each dyno (aka, error)
Only changes are fuel (and dyno brand/location)

 

[Toothless]

Welcome to KS....


Here is the runs bone stock on 93, and with blower on 93.

Do you see from 5300 RPM to 6700 RPM, the torque is relatively flat, then at 6700 RPM, the torque curve starts to take a negative slope. This is what I am talking about. You are making about 8 psi of boost at 6700 PRM (estimating from the chart). On all the Centri cars, you see this phenomena. If the negative slope gets steeper(negatively) than the climb in RPM (positively) then you will see HP drop. This car appears to me to be right on the edge of flatlining. Go up in boost, and it will come. That is when the torques drop off has a steeper slope down in relation to the increase in RPM and thus the flatline.

Diablomatt and I have been sharing dyno charts and examining them, and so far havent found a solution. It seems to me that everyone else (Tuners) just ignores the fact that its happening. Not that its wrong to do that, because the cars seems fast, and you cant feel the flatline.

But as an Engineer, and Matt as a tuner, we are interested in what is causing it.

I would like to see ANYONE that meets the following criteria to show us a dyno chart that doesnt flatline above 6900 RPM:

Manual car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(700 whp+) 93 to 91 octane (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

Auto Car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(660 whp+) 93 to 91 octane) (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

 

[Terminator2]

Paxton below

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1247072&postcount=43

Vortech below

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1332421&postcount=56

There are many other examples these are the ones I have listed in this thread back in the first 6 pages.

There is a really good example of a Paxton or Vortech tuned by Ken B, that has a flatline that looks exactly like mine.

It could definitely be the imrcs closing. 2011-2014 manifold, Boss, Holley sniper would fix that issue.

 

[Toothless]

It could definitely be the imrcs closing. 2011-2014 manifold, Boss, Holley sniper would fix that issue.

The 11-14 manifold is the next trial. Matt is working on that one. :ford:

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Do you see from 5300 RPM to 6700 RPM, the torque is relatively flat, then at 6700 RPM, the torque curve starts to take a negative slope. This is what I am talking about. You are making about 8 psi of boost at 6700 PRM (estimating from the chart). On all the Centri cars, you see this phenomena. If the negative slope gets steeper(negatively) than the climb in RPM (positively) then you will see HP drop. This car appears to me to be right on the edge of flatlining. Go up in boost, and it will come. That is when the torques drop off has a steeper slope down in relation to the increase in RPM and thus the flatline.

Diablomatt and I have been sharing dyno charts and examining them, and so far havent found a solution. It seems to me that everyone else (Tuners) just ignores the fact that its happening. Not that its wrong to do that, because the cars seems fast, and you cant feel the flatline.

But as an Engineer, and Matt as a tuner, we are interested in what is causing it.

I would like to see ANYONE that meets the following criteria to show us a dyno chart that doesnt flatline above 6900 RPM:

Manual car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(700 whp+) 93 to 91 octane (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

Auto Car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(660 whp+) 93 to 91 octane) (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

EVEN if this car on winter fuel followed the screw blower curve.
You are talking 10 HP... (Not to mention they are running MORE boost)

Thats a lot of messing around for 10hp...

(And really could just be an airflow issue with the stock intake at that kinda airspeed)
Since screws don't have that intake, hard to compare.


I guess if it was more drastic on the cars I am around, I would be more concerned.
Just haven't had one that drastic to cause concern. (on our normal fuel)

I have literally hundreds of dyno pulls here, some show the "flat line" more then others.
Frankly the one I just posted is more extreme than others.
I just grabbed one of the first ones I came across.

So here is another from that car, not really much of a dip to speak of.
Same boost, same everything, just some other random pull.

I guess since keeping RPM's low keeps OPG's happy.
And the power gains are pretty unreal,
It's seemed like a mute point...but thats just me.


NOTE: I do NOT believe its IMRC's....
Since we run GT350's with their IMRC's hooked up just like the GT's and they don't do that at all.
Here is a graph below. Nothing weird at 6,400....

 

[15GTPP]

Do you see from 5300 RPM to 6700 RPM, the torque is relatively flat, then at 6700 RPM, the torque curve starts to take a negative slope. This is what I am talking about. You are making about 8 psi of boost at 6700 PRM (estimating from the chart). On all the Centri cars, you see this phenomena. If the negative slope gets steeper(negatively) than the climb in RPM (positively) then you will see HP drop. This car appears to me to be right on the edge of flatlining. Go up in boost, and it will come. That is when the torques drop off has a steeper slope down in relation to the increase in RPM and thus the flatline.

Diablomatt and I have been sharing dyno charts and examining them, and so far havent found a solution. It seems to me that everyone else (Tuners) just ignores the fact that its happening. Not that its wrong to do that, because the cars seems fast, and you cant feel the flatline.

But as an Engineer, and Matt as a tuner, we are interested in what is causing it.

I would like to see ANYONE that meets the following criteria to show us a dyno chart that doesnt flatline above 6900 RPM:

Manual car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(700 whp+) 93 to 91 octane (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

Auto Car

Centri Kit (any brand)
(660 whp+) 93 to 91 octane) (no meth)
2015+ Stock intake manifold
Any tuner
Any exhaust

Smokin with a p1 tuned by Sai Li does not flat line. Not sure why I just remember him saying it doesn't.

 

[Toothless]

Smokin with a p1 tuned by Sai Li does not flat line. Not sure why I just remember him saying it doesn't.

From what I remember his did on 93. But his seemed to not be as severe. I thought he said 6900 rpm it tapered off. I've not seen his e85 graph. I also remember him saying that they kept stock cam timing. Because they saw no increase in power. That was not the case on my car. Cam timing picked up.alot of power.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Smokin with a p1 tuned by Sai Li does not flat line. Not sure why I just remember him saying it doesn't.

Neither do the two graphs I just listed above.
And those cars files are the same tune files we ship out to customers daily.

The only variation between the countless dyno pulls we put on the cars, usually is the fuel in the tank, since they are daily drivers.... (well not the GT350)

My guess is that the stock intake just has an odd flow issue up there.
Since turbo cars do the SAME thing
(roots/screws don't, because they don't have stock intakes)
I can't blame IMRC's cause GT350's have them, and it doesn't happen.

The biggest "flat line" I see here, is and has always been fuel related.
But again, I am all ears to see if some true "fix" happens.
But the "toon" thing doesn't seem to matter, since all tuners, all power adders using the stock intake have demonstrated the effect in high rpm.




THAT BEING SAID, I WANT TO TRY SOMETHING!
But I will need to get a car strapped back down to the dyno.

 

[Jay-rod427]

THAT BEING SAID, I WANT TO TRY SOMETHING!
But I will need to get a car strapped back down to the dyno.

I can bring mine up there, we can throw a "demo" P1X on it and strap it down;). You know the larger the dataset the better you can trace a trend. HEHE

 

[smokinzx14r]

From what I remember his did on 93. But his seemed to not be as severe. I thought he said 6900 rpm it tapered off. I've not seen his e85 graph. I also remember him saying that they kept stock cam timing. Because they saw no increase in power. That was not the case on my car. Cam timing picked up.alot of power.

Mine with a custom tune on 93 would climb to 7000 and then flat line , that was with id1000 injectors and a BAP .My tuner said I was running out of fuel at 7k so he set my shift points to 7k ..

I switched to E85 and a twin pump set up and now HP keeps climbing past 7300 ..But my tuner didn't want me to go past 7300 because I still have the stock OPG .. He said we could go to 7600 maybe more making power when I install the OPG and timing gear ...

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