Prices are on the rise......

[Weather756]

He totally should not be in F1. He is always 2 seconds behind everyone else. His seat should’ve went to IIot who’s now Indy bound. But for Mazepin’s father pretty much buying the Haas F1 team, he wouldn’t be in that seat.

You are absolutely correct "money talks."

Sponsored

 

[Wildcardfox]

A lot more F1 fans on this forum than I could’ve imagined. Cheers!

 

[ICU812]

Sad to see this.
They built these cars to be driven and driven hard with a smile on drivers face and soul.
Now they will sit and rarely if ever turn a wheel in anger

 

[Carbide]

Sad to see this.
They built these cars to be driven and driven hard with a smile on drivers face and soul.
Now they will sit and rarely if ever turn a wheel in anger

It's more than just GT350s obviously. Tons of garage queen supercars as well as other American muscle cars just sitting, waiting to be driven.

 

[ICU812]

It's more than just GT350s obviously. Tons of garage queen supercars as well as other American muscle cars just sitting, waiting to be driven.

Yup.

 

[Wildcardfox]

Sad to see this.
They built these cars to be driven and driven hard with a smile on drivers face and soul.
Now they will sit and rarely if ever turn a wheel in anger

Not everyone subscribes to the idea of pickling a car: the trend of buying a car and preserving it as a zero-miles or close to zero-miles example, and hoping to get a large payout by selling this shrink-wrapped untouched vehicle.

It was a good piece of New York Times that talked about the collector car market and how the idea of low mileage untouched cars has started to become the norm in the last 20 years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...ss/low-mileage-supercars-lamborghini.amp.html

Not everybody agrees with the idea that a car is more valuable or the most valuable when it’s still on the dealer show room floor i.e. on unsold or unregistered. In an old post I said if that’s the case we should come up with some new form of ownership where we buy the car but it’s never register and we never take delivery of it it stays in the dealers care.

I think the person who’s in that article said it best about the collector car market which is that if you want the oil painting buy that because at least it doesn’t leak oil on your floor.

I subscribe to the idea that as long as the car is taken care of it’s still has value. Despite that, many who have kept their vehicle at very low miles always had an intention of selling. You don’t get a 200 mile car or a 13 mile car by having an owner who actually bought the car to use it—their intention is clear: they always had their eyes set on flipping the car when the car was discontinued.

Knowing that we were battling collectors is what raised the prices for dealerships. They knew that it was a future collectible and people would pay a premium for it.

All that said, I do subscribe to the belief that this fixation on mileage and being untouched as being the sole determination of how valuable a car is would go the way of the dodo, but that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Collectors always want the most untouched version, and when buying a car you should always go for the lowest mileage version that you can find.

I can say that some people drive their cars whether it’s a 350R, a Ford GT, or a Lamborghini. Some bought it for their own enjoyment. And the others, that’s their form of ownership and although not for me, I will respect it since it’s their toy.

You should definitely read the article, it’s a great examination on the trend of keeping cars with almost no miles and examines that phenomenon with experts of classic and collector cars and even Jay Leno.


Here’s a quick excerpt:

The idea of preserving low-mileage supercars is “a bizarre fetish that has nothing to do with cars and nothing to do with reality,” Mr. Glickenhaus said. “Carburetors get ruined, the brake fluid turns to cement, the rubber rots, the radiators get clogged, and the oil falls apart and releases corrosives.”

[…]

“It’s a game,” Mr. Dhillon said. “There are dealers who focus on this market, locating the cars and connecting them to the special class of owners who want the lowest-mileage Countach or Diablo. Cars make people do crazy things.”

He agrees with Mr. Leno — exercise your cars at least once a month. And when buying, “it’s critical you review maintenance records to ensure the car was started, driven and serviced regularly,” Mr. Dhillon said. “It can be a costly play if you do not do your due diligence.”

 

[stanglife]

many who have kept their vehicle at very low miles always had an intention of selling. You don’t get a 200 mile car or a 13 mile car by having an owner who actually bought the car to use it—their intention is clear: they always had their eyes set on flipping the car when the car was discontinued.

Another vector (and I fall into this)...is I like the idea that I will own a few different, interesting cars but I cant afford to keep them all at once. I am comfortable with 1 project and 1 driving toy. That being known, I will entertain selling my R in the future if something else comes out that is interesting to me. I'm keeping the miles reasonably low because I want to maxmize its selling price when it comes time for the next car. I'm not keeping miles low specifically to make money or because I always intended to flip it.

One more vector (and I joke about this a little but I do feel the temptation) is that, as a car guy, I've typically lost money on all the cars I've bought and sold over the years. Having one that could actually make a few bucks turns non-flippers into opportunists - but we didn't buy it with that in mind.

Different strokes.

 

[460Fred]

I’ve never been a collector, always a user. Same with firearms, if I’m not using them they are either traded for something I will use or given to family or friends. This reminds me I need to clean house again
There are many, many other “investments” that will traditionally give you a better return. My guess is those who collect for investment have “real” investments pay for their obsession.

 

[Wildcardfox]

Another vector (and I fall into this)...is I like the idea that I will own a few different, interesting cars but I cant afford to keep them all at once. I am comfortable with 1 project and 1 driving toy. That being known, I will entertain selling my R in the future if something else comes out that is interesting to me. I'm keeping the miles reasonably low because I want to maxmize its selling price when it comes time for the next car. I'm not keeping miles low specifically to make money or because I always intended to flip it.

One more vector (and I joke about this a little but I do feel the temptation) is that, as a car guy, I've typically lost money on all the cars I've bought and sold over the years. Having one that could actually make a few bucks turns non-flippers into opportunists - but we didn't buy it with that in mind.

Different strokes.

Totally agree which is why I said “many” not all. The reality is, there may be many reasons for low mileage even the odd “I don’t get to drive it much…”. I’m more specially speaking to the “500 and under” mileage category when I said that phrase. Those buyers were always intending to hold the car until it was unavailable and then bring it out for sale, and we’re seeing that with the deluge of examples with little to no miles showing up at auctions.

 

[oldbmwfan]

I’ve never been a collector, always a user. Same with firearms, if I’m not using them they are either traded for something I will use or given to family or friends. This reminds me I need to clean house again
There are many, many other “investments” that will traditionally give you a better return. My guess is those who collect for investment have “real” investments pay for their obsession.

I'm right there with you. There is a certain set of vehicles where you can do a little of both; that is, you can use the car and maybe not MAKE a bunch of money, but you can avoid LOSING money. Here's my unscientific breakdown of that market:

1) Old drivers' cars. Rationale: they are already fully depreciated. Buy cheap, use as you like, and they are always worth what you paid. If you wait long enough, they might gain value, but they might not. Examples: ~25-yo BMWs, 15-y.o. base-model Porsche 911s, some types of hot hatch (e.g. VW GTI).

Pre-requisites for success doing this: you have to buy cars that were very well-built and are durable, and you have to do your own work; otherwise the cost of maintaining an older car adds up. As a grad student and generally a lover of older cars, I was able to buy and enjoy many cars like this on a tight budget. 1987 BMW 535is, 1988 BMW M5 (made a little on that one), '85 VW GTI, '86 Saab 900 turbo, '93 BMW 525 wagon with 3.5L and manual transmission swap.

2) MId-level cars with huge enthusiast following. This is where the GT350 lives. Not cheap, but affordable for many; aspirational and special enough that people take good care of them; can buy new or near-new and the depreciation is very mild relative to other new cars. Other cars like this are the Nissan GT-R, certain Mini Coopers (for a long time, it was cheaper to buy a new vs. gently used Mini because they held value so well), some of the Japanese sports cars (Supra, FD RX-7, Evo VIII MR and Evo IX).

3) High-end, limited volume cars that basically never depreciate. When you're playing here, you can basically own whatever you want for the cost of insurance and fuel, because the cars are almost always worth more used than new. But, you're tying up significant amounts of money that *could* make you more in other investments. This is where you've got enough cash to make your hobby cheap or nearly free, but it's still not going to be the best "investment." Examples are Porsche GT3 RS, and eventually most GT3s end up here; all but the most "entry level" Ferraris, a few other special/ low-volume versions of more pedestrian vehicles, and the real supercars (Ford GT, Carrera GT, etc.)

I've owned a bunch of type 1 and a few type 2. I'm too cheap to go play in the world of type 3; I'd rather keep 6-figure amounts invested in the market or other assets. Maybe someday ...

I will say, there's something hugely freeing about owning a higher-mileage version of a special car. You get all the enjoyment with none of the guilt. Here are two pics of my 993 at Grattan Raceway last month: this was the odometer right after lunch, and at the end of that afternoon. 100 miles (~50 laps) in one afternoon out of two days on track. Way more fun than sitting in the garage collecting dust! The really nice thing is, with the used market being as crazy as it is right now, even with this mileage the car is easily worth $10K more than I paid for it in 2019.

 

[Caballus]

Our lifelong dilemma. Leave it in the package or take it to the track.

May have a few more bucks today, but childhood would have been MUCH different if I had left them in the package...

 

[PP0001]

Our lifelong dilemma. Leave it in the package or take it to the track.

May have a few more bucks today, but childhood would have been MUCH different if I had left them in the package...

Totally agreed!

It all comes down to what each fellow enthusiast is happy with and what their overall comfort level is and suggest that we all need to respect whatever direction that each enthusiast takes.

For me personally it is a combination of the overall driving experience and also the collectibility that these terrific 2nd generation GT350/R's examples provide to us during the time of our ownership.

In some cases these outstanding Shelby GT350/R Mustangs are simply enjoyed by some perserving the way that they came from the factory which includes very little or no miles whereas many of these GT350/R's will be driven very hard over the course of ownership by many of us members and I certainly get that scenario as well.

At the end of the day we all have choices as to how we go forward with these cool 2nd generation GT350/R's and hope that whatever the case that we respect each others decision making.

 

[DrumReaper]

#MyCarMyChoice


I might add, it’s those cars that are pristine examples that help keep the market price movers interested.

 

[dom418]

Totally agree which is why I said “many” not all. The reality is, there may be many reasons for low mileage even the odd “I don’t get to drive it much…”. I’m more specially speaking to the “500 and under” mileage category when I said that phrase. Those buyers were always intending to hold the car until it was unavailable and then bring it out for sale, and we’re seeing that with the deluge of examples with little to no miles showing up at auctions.

I am one of these buyers who tried to keep an R in the “wrapper“. I had a chance to buy a HEP R. I try and buy special cars that I feel will depreciate the least compared to the average toy. I work hard for my money and understand cars deprecate, I just hate losing my rear end.

At the time I wasn’t sure what my intentions were with the car. I decided to keep it in the plastic with 9 miles because I did pay $5000 over msrp and between taxes and shipping, felt I had more into the car than it was worth.

After just a few months of just looking at the car, it killed me not to drive it, and decided to sell it. I did make a profit, which was not why I bought the car, it it was nice to come out ahead for once however.

In 20 years, I would much rather buy a car like this that has been driven and loved vs a wrapper car that has the potential for developing mechanical issues from not being driven (rotting and dry seals, gaskets etc).

 

[Wildcardfox]

I am one of these buyers who tried to keep an R in the “wrapper“. I had a chance to buy a HEP R. I try and buy special cars that I feel will depreciate the least compared to the average toy. I work hard for my money and understand cars deprecate, I just hate losing my rear end.

At the time I wasn’t sure what my intentions were with the car. I decided to keep it in the plastic with 9 miles because I did pay $5000 over msrp and between taxes and shipping, felt I had more into the car than it was worth.

After just a few months of just looking at the car, it killed me not to drive it, and decided to sell it. I did make a profit, which was not why I bought the car, it it was nice to come out ahead for once however.

In 20 years, I would much rather buy a car like this that has been driven and loved vs a wrapper car that has the potential for developing mechanical issues from not being driven (rotting and dry seals, gaskets etc).

I completely agree. When someone owns a car, it’s up to them what they do with it—they can trash it like he owner of this 2020 GT350R did:

(I guesstimated that it would cost about 8k-10k to put that car back to stock, oh and for some reason they ditched the R splitter for the base model splitter and put Cooper tires on it)

That said, as much as I hate it, it was his car and that owner did what he did—treated it as a canvas to show that he had lots of money and horrible taste, but it fit his boat.

If I could wish anything, like the people in the article that I posted, I wish that the car community started to view taking care of a car as more valuable than a wrapper low miles car. A car that was well maintained and cared for should be worth more than the car that was never used. Idealistic maybe, but I think the car community would be a lot better off if I didn’t hear from friends about their 350R or brand new Ford GT who are afraid to drive their car past 2000 miles for fear of value drop.

As one Ford Perfromance engineer told me when he recalled someone saying that they have a ‘93 Cobra R with 2000 miles on it. He said that he told them “Great, but you missed the point of the car—drive it, enjoy it!”His belief is that as long as you take care of it, it’s still a rare car—it still has value.

After owning lots of Mustangs, I’m used to seeing them drop like a rock in value. When I bought my R, I believed that it had a chance of becoming a classic and the possibility of appreciating instead of depreciating. I would’ve still bought it if that was not in the cards, because I loved the car so much. That appreciation happened way faster than I expected but we are starring down the gun of electrification, so it’s not surprising as it is the last of the greats of an era that will soon be lost.

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