Prices are on the rise......

PP0001

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One more that’s all about the discussion of values and auction sales.
Interesting to see a picture of a Oxford White 2016 GT350R that was sold at Tulsa back in June as I ended up spending a great deal of time with that car in Tulsa and that including detailing it for the owner prior to him arriving to the inagural Mecum auction in Tulsa.

This was a very small venue in Tulsa but the local crowds were very enthusiastic and the Mecum Family showed a lot of trust going to Tulsa for the very first time and suggest that next year will be even that much better.

Because I really enjoy the spartan look and uniqueness of the Base R's based on what I grew up with way back in the 1960's I got to know the owner of this 2016 R after which time he reached out to me for some help, feedback and comments regarding these rare Base R models.

As far as I can tell that is the only Base R model that I am aware of that has been sold at auction in 2020 and obviously it did pretty well.

Thanks again for posting another informative video for us GT350 and R model enthusiasts!
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No Vettelish. No! Who else will I make F1 related jokes that get ignored.

One F1 fan to another: I wish you the best in your next car.
How about Monza today? I’ll watch later for a replay of today’s shoey as I missed the podium ceremony….
 

65straight6

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I really like my 2019 Ford Shelby #1868.

The car itself is worth much more money than I paid for it in today's market. It's my 2nd best car.

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I second that sentiment; worth more than I paid and my 2nd best vehicle…😂🤣
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nothing beats a Cummins 6-spd..
 

ICU812

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I respect your sentiment but I can disagree with you on the following:

Corvettes are always a bad example when speaking of car investments. They’re notorious for never commanding high value unless it’s the original Grand Sports of which only 3 exist if I remember correctly or a Split Window Stingray, which although are not million dollar cars, are still highly valuable. Modern Corvettes like the 2006 ZR1 or even the latest ZR1 always seem to lose in valves because Corvette always makes more and for some reason people don’t want an older generation Vette when buying at auction if they can afford the newer generation. We can argue this debate on Corvette value, but let’s look at other cars from the 60’s and 70’s that have high value.

I got to work on the scripts for the on-air personality at the 2021 Houston Barrett-Jackson as the technical advisor, and here are some examples of valuable cars that were made in the 1960s and 70s in the upcoming auction that are highly desirable today:

1965 K-Code Mustang

Dodge Coronet R/T

Plymouth Roadrunner

1969 Chevy K5 Blazer

1979 Bronco with the Free Wheelin Styleside (any Ford truck with this styling package)

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and 1967 Shelby GT500

any early Shelby GT350

any Shelby Daytona

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1969 PONTIAC GTO JUDGE RAM AIR III

1960 MASERATI TIPO 61 "BIRDCAGE" RE-CREATION

1962 VOLKSWAGEN 23-WINDOW CUSTOM MICROBUS

1969 CHEVROLET CHEVELLE SS 396

1970 PLYMOUTH GTX HEMI

Early Camaros, El Camino, etc




Most of these were from my notes from the upcoming auction. A sample of cars that despite being obsolete by modern standards of performance and still highly sought after and command values far higher than they were when new (when adjusted for inflation).

It’s rarely about whether something newer is faster, it’s about how the original made you feel—did it have the striking looks of the Plymouth GTX?

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Or the cool factor of a second generation Bronco with that styling package?

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or was it important to history like the Maserati Birdcage?
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Now, I need a truck in my life and I like the new Bronco, but I would take that 1979 example over a 2022 Bronco in a heartbeat. Probably would take the new yet-tobereleased Bronco Raptor over this classic, but the classic has staying power. And I would take that GTX any day of the week because it is just badass—God Bless John Delorean!

The birdcage, although a 60s car, was severely obsolete just a few years later, but regardless of that fact the, what a car! During its prime was one of the best race cars around with Carroll Shelby, Sterling Moss, and Dan Gurney to name a few piloting it and winning championships. So it is valued in the millions because of its importance to history.

Yes, today’s racing standards, it would be outclassed by a Honda Civic that you tuned into a track day car, but people will pay over a million to own this example. (It’s dubbed a recreation but it is not a replica, it’s made of the original parts of one of the crashed cars, and it was rebuilt using the same specs and parts and chassis and body was finished by Maserati of UK, so original car that will most likely get over 1 million next week).
—-

When it comes to future value, speed and power is never the metric that we should use because those are all relative.

A Toyota Camry is faster than a Lamborghini Countach or a Ferrari F40. Speed always advances.

Hell, right now with electrification, sub 2 second 0-60 times will be the norm of every car from the mom getting groceries to the senior citizen driving to the park. When it’s a norm, no one will care.

A great example of if everything is special then nothing is are the last Dodge Vipers. Although I love them and want to own one, they had this “1 of 1” color scheme where ever car was unique and had its own color shade picked by the owner. The problem with that is if every car is 1 of 1, then the notoriety wears off because it’s common to have a special color—so it’s not really unique, it’s just common—it’s just the default.

Jay Leno once told me that Carroll Shelby signed so many Mustangs, that the valuable ones are the cars he didn’t sign.

If every new car can do 0-60 in sub 2 seconds, then who cares unless you can do it in under 1 second you’re just the same as every other car, and people can also stop caring about that metric all together.

To your point that modern Shelby’s—GT350 and 500 will be worthless, I disagree. Faster doesn’t equal better. And my analogies from above exist for this as well.

I point you to a Road & Track article on what makes a car more valuable by examining the 2006 Corvette ZR1 vs the 2005 Ford GT. The ZR1 was faster and made more horsepower, but the ZR1 has been resigned to the scrap heap of values whereas a 2005-06 Ford GT is worth more than twice as much than it was when new.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a23677671/ford-gt-vs-corvette-zr1-value/

As for generations, I know there are many surveys that put Mustang ownership in the 55 year old range and I think that’s really bunk because it can be misleading as to whom Mustang buyers are generally. First off, Ford sells many many Mustangs to people of all ages, from high school seniors getting their first car to 80 year old senior citizens who drive their 2019 460 horsepower Mustang to the Senior Citizen Center everyday to quilt (my mother for instance).

That high schooler who is gifted a new Mustang GT didn’t buy the car, so their parent’s age gets counted as the owner, so it’s age gap can be exaggerated by the fact that Mustang is marketed to everyone—first car to retired person. Because of these anomalies, it’s unwise to take the survey data as a clear representation of the people buying the car—have you ever been to a Mustang show? Lots of 20-30 year olds there. This community is not filled with people only of a certain age, I myself am 38 and considered a millennial because I graduated high school in 2000 and was born in 1982.

The love of cars that make a noise and a sound other than a whine will persist until long into the future.

I’m a big F1 fan, but when they came out with Formula-E, their electric series, I watched like two races and never came back. Why? It’s F1 style racing? But there was no sound. It was like watching a race with the TV on mute. And even the manufacturers like Audi and BMW announced that they will be leaving in 2021, including Mercedes who just won the championship are abandoning the sport because people aren’t watching—Sound matters and also things like a manual transmission matter.

The DCT and PDK, for those Porsche fans out there, is superior to any manual transmission in terms of speed of shifting and any DCT equipped car will be faster than any manual transmission car, but look at how people clamor for a manual, decrying and in some cases like with Porsche, demanding that the GT3 come with a manual option. They do that because to some, nothing beats the feeling that a manual transmission gives you in driver enjoyment. Is it slower, yes! Is it obsolete? Absolutely! But is it better? The only answer is no.

So, I agree to disagree on these points of faster electric cars will make past cars obsolete and unvaluable, modern Shelby’s will be unvaluable, and generations of Mustang fans who love internal combustion will all age out.

An excerpt from that R&T article:

…the market cares little for raw speed because raw speed tends to become meaningless over time. Even the mighty sixteen-cylinder Grand Prix streamliners of the thirties would struggle to keep pace with a modern MX-5 Cup car around most normal tracks.

So what really matters in the long-run market, or the middle-run ownership experience, if it isn’t speed and power? Looking at auction results will give you a better sense than I can convey here in a few words, but: Beauty. Rarity. Daring design, first-ever features, aesthetics that perfectly represent the era in which the car was sold new (see: Tri-Five Chevrolet, 1977 Trans Am, 1986 Supra). Most of all, however, it’s that undefinable “specialness” that some cars have and others don’t. A Berlinetta Boxer is more special than a 930 Turbo, even to the Loofacultpeople. A new V6 Camry is faster in a straight line than a first-year-production Scion FR-S, but something tells me your classic-car budget is better spent on the latter. Specialness comes in many forms, but it’s primarily associated with being uniquely fit for enthusiastic purposes.


Since we’re on the 350 forum and in a thread about 350 values, this car meets multiple points of the criteria and it has that undeniable specialness in droves. You may have a crystal ball 🔮 , but I wouldn’t stake the farm on your prediction because just looking at how this particular car is viewed by the automotive community, other manufacturers, and the obituary articles when it was discontinued, I would not be so quick to believe it will become worthless as soon as electric ⚡ cars become the norm. I, myself, would not take that bet.
I hope i.c.e performance vehicles are still a big part of the hobby, for a long long time.
But the owner age of these vehicles, and the fact that a very small part of the younger generations see, American performance cars as something to lust after. And lets face it, no matter what the person with an auction paddle in their hand plans on doing with the vehicle after they own it (drive it, pack it away in moth balls ) they buy because they have had a longing for such a model for a long time.
THe gt500 is a limited production car persay, but in the future the number of people that are part of the younger generations that those that own them now, are a small group that be standing with a paddle or on the phone with an auction staffer bidding. I think other vehicles will be the ones those people lust after, like they do now. For a lot of the under 40 crowd the pony cars are not even on their radar, so who know if it will be in 10-20 years when they are older. I know what vehicles/cars my kids and their friends like and wish they could have, and sad to say only a few have any passing interest in mustangs/camaro's even though they have a strong interest in performance cars/trucks.
Like I stated above I hope the hobby had a long life with i.c.e. powered vehicles. I know one thing I , know one knows what the future holds.
 

ICU812

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I think you’re not looking at who is actually enjoying these cars now. Using the Porsche example - Injust left a huge Air-cooled event and at the event and various pop ups in the city - at 48, I was on the older side of the people there. Cars were 60s-current.
Porsche has the panty dropping effect when out and about, for a night on the town.
So, sure younger GUYS will own those.
So are they owning the car because they like the CAR or what it can GET them. If it is because they truly love driving them, awesome. Having been a young guy at one time and knowing what happens to Females when a guy drives vehicles with that badge. The more things change,,, as they say.
 

ICU812

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Like you I have been around since the 1960's and to lump the last of the C3 Corvette's in with the last of the big block Mopar's in the same sentence is certainly a stretch to say the least.

I have owned numerous Mopar's including an A12 car that I owned for many years and the last time that I looked it was not an "Investment Turd" by any means.

Appreciate your comments and experience but will have to agree to disagree with many of your comments. :wink:
LAST OF THE BIG BLOCK MOPARS. Come on, the 1974 charger brings in pocket change to what a 1969 440 changer does.
And I like the 74 body.
 

PP0001

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LAST OF THE BIG BLOCK MOPARS. Come on, the 1974 charger brings in pocket change to what a 1969 440 changer does.
And I like the 74 body.
Just how many Muscle Cars have you previously owned as it is obvious that we are not even close to being on the same page based on some of your outlandish comments?

If you like a '74 Charger and consider it one of the last of the big block Mopar Muscle Cars that pretty much speaks for itself as most informed enthusiasts know that the Muscle Car era pretty much ended with the 1971 model year.:facepalm:

Over the last 50+ years I have been very fortunate to have owned cars such as a '69 1/2 SC Rambler (23 years), '68 Camaro RS/SS L78, 69 1/2 A12 Road Runner, '65 Mustang 2+2 K Code, 340 Duster, and the list goes on therefore I am well experienced in the Muscle Car world.

Carry on as you and I are not even close to being on the same page with respect to the future of the ICE high performance vehicles along with your thoughts when it comes to the present and future values of the 60's and early 70's Muscle Cars let alone the terrific future for the values of our 2nd generation GT350/R's.
 

ICU812

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Just how many Muscle Cars have you previously owned as it is obvious that we are not even close to being on the same page based on some of your outlandish comments?

If you like a '74 Charger and consider it one of the last of the big block Mopar Muscle Cars that pretty much speaks for itself as most informed enthusiasts know that the Muscle Car era pretty much ended with the 1971 model year.:facepalm:

Over the last 50+ years I have been very fortunate to have owned cars such as a '69 1/2 SC Rambler (23 years), '68 Camaro RS/SS L78, 69 1/2 A12 Road Runner, '65 Mustang 2+2 K Code, 340 Duster, and the list goes on therefore I am well experienced in the Muscle Car world.

Carry on as you and I are not even close to being on the same page with respect to the future of the ICE high performance vehicles along with your thoughts when it comes to the present and future values of the 60's and early 70's Muscle Cars let alone the terrific future for the values of our 2nd generation GT350/R's.
1966 gto 389/4 speed
1970 charger 383 car
1970 chevelle ls5 4 speed
1968 442
1970.5 t/a 400/4spd
1974 S/D t/a
1968 cougar
1967 Firechicken
1981 turbo t/a, this one might be a stretch calling it a muscle car.
1962 409 impala, not original engine.
1992 firehawk
1971 challanger.
1966 tempest originally a 326 car, 455/ 4 speed.
I've had a few.
 

Mr. Maboomba

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Took me forever to find it, but it appears the 2015 GT350 hammered for $72,500. So $79,750 final price.

Certainly disappointing I would say. It was estimated it to go between 100k and 125k. It appears that regular Gt350s, even a 1 of 1 2015 spec, is just being overshadowed by the R model. It may be a really long time before a car like this one gets the love it deserves. Great buy though for the new buyer. I'd hold for 10 plus years at least and then see what the temp is like.
Anyone who thinks GT350 and GT350R values will stay close over time is very optimistic. I strongly believe the 2020 GT350R will be “the one to have” in the future. Best version of the model with an updated engine and other 2020-only updates. Collectors pay outlier prices for best or rare versions, original equipment / numbers matching, provenance / documentation, and like-new condition.

I own a 2019 GT350. It’s a fun car but I don’t expect it to be a collectible.
 

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I hope i.c.e performance vehicles are still a big part of the hobby, for a long long time.
But the owner age of these vehicles, and the fact that a very small part of the younger generations see, American performance cars as something to lust after. And lets face it, no matter what the person with an auction paddle in their hand plans on doing with the vehicle after they own it (drive it, pack it away in moth balls ) they buy because they have had a longing for such a model for a long time.
THe gt500 is a limited production car persay, but in the future the number of people that are part of the younger generations that those that own them now, are a small group that be standing with a paddle or on the phone with an auction staffer bidding. I think other vehicles will be the ones those people lust after, like they do now. For a lot of the under 40 crowd the pony cars are not even on their radar, so who know if it will be in 10-20 years when they are older. I know what vehicles/cars my kids and their friends like and wish they could have, and sad to say only a few have any passing interest in mustangs/camaro's even though they have a strong interest in performance cars/trucks.
Like I stated above I hope the hobby had a long life with i.c.e. powered vehicles. I know one thing I , know one knows what the future holds.
As a millennial I agree with a lot of this. I was not looking at pony cars when I decided to upgrade from my hot hatch, but the reason I did is due to how special the GT350 is. Manual, FPC, track focused, heritage, CF wheels for the R, etc. I expect to see egg shaped EVs dominate the road in the coming decades which is definitely a bummer, but that's the direction the market and future is going. Enthusiasts however will always gravitate to a car like this, even more so than the GT500 honestly. 700 hp is great now, but these electric cars will literally be limitless on output. Just like what wildcardfox said/shared, speed is relative. What will determine values going forward will weigh heavily on the driving experience rather than speed. People will want a killer exhaust note when exhausts don't exist anymore. They'll want a manual when transmissions are gone. They'll want it to look the part, and have history behind it. The GT350 checks those boxes and more.
 
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