Prices are on the rise......

ICU812

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
1,977
Reaction score
1,958
Location
Prestonburg,KY.
Vehicle(s)
Ford Tempo, Ford Mustang,FFR,Crown vic.
Using your logic - no one would want an air-cooled Porsche today…which we all know is not the case.
My logic is the trend, as those that have interest in an era of vehicles age out, less and less folks interested in buying them. Air-cooled porsche are not exactly that old, they ran that up to the 90's .
The brass era/ pre war, post war are seeing this now. I am not saying they are cheap, just that they peaked and are on the downward slide that they will never recover from.
The age of the s550 mustang buyer is 50+ that means in 20 years when these cross the B.J., MECUM stage these folks will be 70 and up for the most part. The hobby is already contracting at an alarming rate.
I hope there is still folks interested in cars in 20 years, and a robust hobby. but sorry to say. It doesn't look like it will be.
Kids are into cars/trucks, just not their grandpa's v8 models.
Advertisement

 

Hack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
10,949
Reaction score
5,962
Location
Minneapolis
Vehicle(s)
Mustang, Fiesta
Sounds like a lot of generalized comments to me as not everyone that decides to preserve one of these great cars (or any other cool vehicle for that matter) has no idea how these terrific cars drive or that their automobile owns the owners.

I have a number of close friends who decided to preserve one great cars but have enough equivalent make/model cars of the same vehicle and drive them on a regular basis in order to fully understand the awesome driving experience that these vehicles provide.

In fact one of my best friends has a number of 2015 Track/Tech Pack cars along with a number of R models including a 2015 R and can tell you that he definitely owns his cars and has multiple GT350/R's in his corral in order to understand and experience the outstanding driving experience of the 2nd generation GT350/R's even though he has put a few cars away for preservation.

In my case I decided to preserve "F0077" and sold it on the MSO after ~5 years with it only having 42 miles on the odometer at sale and yet are you suggesting that F0077 owned me and that I have no idea how a GT350 Track Pack/Tech Pack car drives?

With respect to preserving a given vehicle I get the point that you are trying to make but don't appreciate you lumping all of us automotive enthusiasts into the same bucket with respect to our lack of driving experience or whether a preserved vehicle owns them or the other way around as there are plenty of us out here that do know the difference. :)
I don't think you should be offended by what I said. Obviously you don't know what F0077 drove like. But that was your choice. You didn't feel the need to drive the car. You wanted to preserve it and make money from a sale. It was your car and you did what you preferred with it. You cleaned it, preserved it, took photos, talked about it, but didn't drive it.
 
Last edited:

Wildcardfox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
886
Reaction score
1,489
Location
CA
First Name
Brett
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT350R
Been in the car hobby, etc for 50 years. I have talked to many a spouse that The now passed on, other half was saving the vehicle to use after they retired. Or those that used them but didn't want to put too many miles on them and the vehicle would never see 500 miles a year if it saw 200, only to have mother nature make the choice for him/her.


It is their vehicle they can do as they please. They own it. no argument from me there.
Here is what I see in my crystal ball. A repeat of the 70's, when people stuffed silver anv. vettes in a warehouse, the last c3's, the last g bodys, last big block mopars,etc. only to have the h/p come back in the late 80's and make these "investments" turds.
Today's gt500/shelby's are going to have the same fate, why because once they start building all electric performance cars ,no matter how I hate the Idea, they will be faster, and handle better as you can put the weight where you want it, unlike today's vehicles, with that weight having a very low center of gravity. Those that love the high powered i.c.e. will be aging out of the hobby. So who is going to be the market for these in 15-20 years? Guys in their 70-80's?
Now if ford could get it's head out of it's @$$ and drop the E/B 300+hp in something as small and light as the Mazda MX5.
The younger folks into vehicle might , be hol'up.
Ford failed with the fiesta and Focus performance cars because they priced them out of reach of the buyers market. A 40k focus was a hard sell to a 20 something.
Then there was that transmission mess.
I respect your sentiment but I can disagree with you on the following:

Corvettes are always a bad example when speaking of car investments. They’re notorious for never commanding high value unless it’s the original Grand Sports of which only 3 exist if I remember correctly or a Split Window Stingray, which although are not million dollar cars, are still highly valuable. Modern Corvettes like the 2006 ZR1 or even the latest ZR1 always seem to lose in valves because Corvette always makes more and for some reason people don’t want an older generation Vette when buying at auction if they can afford the newer generation. We can argue this debate on Corvette value, but let’s look at other cars from the 60’s and 70’s that have high value.

I got to work on the scripts for the on-air personality at the 2021 Houston Barrett-Jackson as the technical advisor, and here are some examples of valuable cars that were made in the 1960s and 70s in the upcoming auction that are highly desirable today:

1965 K-Code Mustang

Dodge Coronet R/T

Plymouth Roadrunner

1969 Chevy K5 Blazer

1979 Bronco with the Free Wheelin Styleside (any Ford truck with this styling package)

1631450782928.png


and 1967 Shelby GT500

any early Shelby GT350

any Shelby Daytona

1631451044371.jpeg


1969 PONTIAC GTO JUDGE RAM AIR III

1960 MASERATI TIPO 61 "BIRDCAGE" RE-CREATION

1962 VOLKSWAGEN 23-WINDOW CUSTOM MICROBUS

1969 CHEVROLET CHEVELLE SS 396

1970 PLYMOUTH GTX HEMI

Early Camaros, El Camino, etc




Most of these were from my notes from the upcoming auction. A sample of cars that despite being obsolete by modern standards of performance and still highly sought after and command values far higher than they were when new (when adjusted for inflation).

It’s rarely about whether something newer is faster, it’s about how the original made you feel—did it have the striking looks of the Plymouth GTX?

1631451277736.jpeg


Or the cool factor of a second generation Bronco with that styling package?

1631451243754.jpeg


or was it important to history like the Maserati Birdcage?
1631454351186.jpeg


Now, I need a truck in my life and I like the new Bronco, but I would take that 1979 example over a 2022 Bronco in a heartbeat. Probably would take the new yet-tobereleased Bronco Raptor over this classic, but the classic has staying power. And I would take that GTX any day of the week because it is just badass—God Bless John Delorean!

The birdcage, although a 60s car, was severely obsolete just a few years later, but regardless of that fact the, what a car! During its prime was one of the best race cars around with Carroll Shelby, Sterling Moss, and Dan Gurney to name a few piloting it and winning championships. So it is valued in the millions because of its importance to history.

Yes, today’s racing standards, it would be outclassed by a Honda Civic that you tuned into a track day car, but people will pay over a million to own this example. (It’s dubbed a recreation but it is not a replica, it’s made of the original parts of one of the crashed cars, and it was rebuilt using the same specs and parts and chassis and body was finished by Maserati of UK, so original car that will most likely get over 1 million next week).
—-

When it comes to future value, speed and power is never the metric that we should use because those are all relative.

A Toyota Camry is faster than a Lamborghini Countach or a Ferrari F40. Speed always advances.

Hell, right now with electrification, sub 2 second 0-60 times will be the norm of every car from the mom getting groceries to the senior citizen driving to the park. When it’s a norm, no one will care.

A great example of if everything is special then nothing is are the last Dodge Vipers. Although I love them and want to own one, they had this “1 of 1” color scheme where ever car was unique and had its own color shade picked by the owner. The problem with that is if every car is 1 of 1, then the notoriety wears off because it’s common to have a special color—so it’s not really unique, it’s just common—it’s just the default.

Jay Leno once told me that Carroll Shelby signed so many Mustangs, that the valuable ones are the cars he didn’t sign.

If every new car can do 0-60 in sub 2 seconds, then who cares unless you can do it in under 1 second you’re just the same as every other car, and people can also stop caring about that metric all together.

To your point that modern Shelby’s—GT350 and 500 will be worthless, I disagree. Faster doesn’t equal better. And my analogies from above exist for this as well.

I point you to a Road & Track article on what makes a car more valuable by examining the 2006 Corvette ZR1 vs the 2005 Ford GT. The ZR1 was faster and made more horsepower, but the ZR1 has been resigned to the scrap heap of values whereas a 2005-06 Ford GT is worth more than twice as much than it was when new.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a23677671/ford-gt-vs-corvette-zr1-value/

As for generations, I know there are many surveys that put Mustang ownership in the 55 year old range and I think that’s really bunk because it can be misleading as to whom Mustang buyers are generally. First off, Ford sells many many Mustangs to people of all ages, from high school seniors getting their first car to 80 year old senior citizens who drive their 2019 460 horsepower Mustang to the Senior Citizen Center everyday to quilt (my mother for instance).

That high schooler who is gifted a new Mustang GT didn’t buy the car, so their parent’s age gets counted as the owner, so it’s age gap can be exaggerated by the fact that Mustang is marketed to everyone—first car to retired person. Because of these anomalies, it’s unwise to take the survey data as a clear representation of the people buying the car—have you ever been to a Mustang show? Lots of 20-30 year olds there. This community is not filled with people only of a certain age, I myself am 38 and considered a millennial because I graduated high school in 2000 and was born in 1982.

The love of cars that make a noise and a sound other than a whine will persist until long into the future.

I’m a big F1 fan, but when they came out with Formula-E, their electric series, I watched like two races and never came back. Why? It’s F1 style racing? But there was no sound. It was like watching a race with the TV on mute. And even the manufacturers like Audi and BMW announced that they will be leaving in 2021, including Mercedes who just won the championship are abandoning the sport because people aren’t watching—Sound matters and also things like a manual transmission matter.

The DCT and PDK, for those Porsche fans out there, is superior to any manual transmission in terms of speed of shifting and any DCT equipped car will be faster than any manual transmission car, but look at how people clamor for a manual, decrying and in some cases like with Porsche, demanding that the GT3 come with a manual option. They do that because to some, nothing beats the feeling that a manual transmission gives you in driver enjoyment. Is it slower, yes! Is it obsolete? Absolutely! But is it better? The only answer is no.

So, I agree to disagree on these points of faster electric cars will make past cars obsolete and unvaluable, modern Shelby’s will be unvaluable, and generations of Mustang fans who love internal combustion will all age out.

An excerpt from that R&T article:

…the market cares little for raw speed because raw speed tends to become meaningless over time. Even the mighty sixteen-cylinder Grand Prix streamliners of the thirties would struggle to keep pace with a modern MX-5 Cup car around most normal tracks.

So what really matters in the long-run market, or the middle-run ownership experience, if it isn’t speed and power? Looking at auction results will give you a better sense than I can convey here in a few words, but: Beauty. Rarity. Daring design, first-ever features, aesthetics that perfectly represent the era in which the car was sold new (see: Tri-Five Chevrolet, 1977 Trans Am, 1986 Supra). Most of all, however, it’s that undefinable “specialness” that some cars have and others don’t. A Berlinetta Boxer is more special than a 930 Turbo, even to the Loofacultpeople. A new V6 Camry is faster in a straight line than a first-year-production Scion FR-S, but something tells me your classic-car budget is better spent on the latter. Specialness comes in many forms, but it’s primarily associated with being uniquely fit for enthusiastic purposes.


Since we’re on the 350 forum and in a thread about 350 values, this car meets multiple points of the criteria and it has that undeniable specialness in droves. You may have a crystal ball 🔮 , but I wouldn’t stake the farm on your prediction because just looking at how this particular car is viewed by the automotive community, other manufacturers, and the obituary articles when it was discontinued, I would not be so quick to believe it will become worthless as soon as electric ⚡ cars become the norm. I, myself, would not take that bet.
 
Last edited:

stanglife

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
6,341
Reaction score
4,793
Location
FL
First Name
Jeff
Vehicle(s)
1993 Coyote Coupe
My logic is the trend, as those that have interest in an era of vehicles age out, less and less folks interested in buying them. Air-cooled porsche are not exactly that old, they ran that up to the 90's .
The brass era/ pre war, post war are seeing this now. I am not saying they are cheap, just that they peaked and are on the downward slide that they will never recover from.
The age of the s550 mustang buyer is 50+ that means in 20 years when these cross the B.J., MECUM stage these folks will be 70 and up for the most part. The hobby is already contracting at an alarming rate.
I hope there is still folks interested in cars in 20 years, and a robust hobby. but sorry to say. It doesn't look like it will be.
Kids are into cars/trucks, just not their grandpa's v8 models.

I think you’re not looking at who is actually enjoying these cars now. Using the Porsche example - Injust left a huge Air-cooled event and at the event and various pop ups in the city - at 48, I was on the older side of the people there. Cars were 60s-current.
 

PP0001

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
4,723
Reaction score
5,422
Location
Coachella Valley & Valley of the Sun
Vehicle(s)
2020 MDX PMC #91
I don't think you should be offended by what I said. Obviously you don't know what F0077 drove like. But that was your choice. You didn't feel the need to drive the car. You wanted to preserve it and make money from a sale. It was your car and you did what you preferred with it. You cleaned it, preserved it, took photos, talked about it, but didn't drive it.
I find it interesting for you to make various assumptions as to my intent for F0077 and driving knowledge of what F0077 drove like when in fact you have absolutely no idea of my original intent or driving experiences when it come to a 2015 GT350 whether it was F0077 or any other 2015 GT350.

Did I have to drive F0077 to fully understand how it drove when I also had F0079 and F0080 in my garage at the exact same time and drove the latter two cars in a very spirited fashion for many miles in South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina?

In fact I liked the driving experience of F0080 so much that I became the permanent owner of that car.

Shortly after the 2015 GT350/R cars launched in July of that year I was invited to Sebring in October 2015 in order to experience the difference between the 4 seat Track Pack cars versus the 2 seat R models and drove many of these cool GT350/R's back to back that day therefore I know exactly how the early production Track Pack cars drove especially compared to the R model.

Based on logging many miles with both Track Pack and Tech Pack 2015 GT350 cars which also includes my track experience at Sebring I certainly know how these cars perform and drive.

:sunglasses:

DSCF1584.JPG
 
Last edited:

PP0001

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
4,723
Reaction score
5,422
Location
Coachella Valley & Valley of the Sun
Vehicle(s)
2020 MDX PMC #91
Been in the car hobby, etc for 50 years. I have talked to many a spouse that The now passed on, other half was saving the vehicle to use after they retired. Or those that used them but didn't want to put too many miles on them and the vehicle would never see 500 miles a year if it saw 200, only to have mother nature make the choice for him/her.
It is their vehicle they can do as they please. They own it. no argument from me there.
Here is what I see in my crystal ball. A repeat of the 70's, when people stuffed silver anv. vettes in a warehouse, the last c3's, the last g bodys, last big block mopars,etc. only to have the h/p come back in the late 80's and make these "investments" turds.
Today's gt500/shelby's are going to have the same fate, why because once they start building all electric performance cars ,no matter how I hate the Idea, they will be faster, and handle better as you can put the weight where you want it, unlike today's vehicles, with that weight having a very low center of gravity. Those that love the high powered i.c.e. will be aging out of the hobby. So who is going to be the market for these in 15-20 years? Guys in their 70-80's?
Now if ford could get it's head out of it's @$$ and drop the E/B 300+hp in something as small and light as the Mazda MX5.
The younger folks into vehicle might , be hol'up.
Ford failed with the fiesta and Focus performance cars because they priced them out of reach of the buyers market. A 40k focus was a hard sell to a 20 something.
Then there was that transmission mess.
Like you I have been around since the 1960's and to lump the last of the C3 Corvette's in with the last of the big block Mopar's in the same sentence is certainly a stretch to say the least.

I have owned numerous Mopar's including an A12 car that I owned for many years and the last time that I looked it was not an "Investment Turd" by any means.

Appreciate your comments and experience but will have to agree to disagree with many of your comments. :wink:
 

Epiphany

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
6,832
Reaction score
9,893
Location
Global
Vehicle(s)
I like to disassemble things.
Jay Leno once told me that Carroll Shelby signed so many Mustangs, that the valuable ones are the cars he didn’t sign.
I think Leno is tapping my phone...
 

Hack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
10,949
Reaction score
5,962
Location
Minneapolis
Vehicle(s)
Mustang, Fiesta
I find it interesting for you to make various assumptions as to my intent for F0077 and driving knowledge of what F0077 drove like when in fact you have absolutely no idea of my original intent or driving experiences when it come to a 2015 GT350 whether it was F0077 or any other 2015 GT350.

Did I have to drive F0077 to fully understand how it drove when I also had F0079 and F0080 in my garage at the exact same time and drove the latter two cars in a very spirited fashion for many miles in South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina?

In fact I liked the driving experience of F0080 so much that I became the permanent owner of that car.

Shortly after the 2015 GT350/R cars launched in July of that year I was invited to Sebring in October 2015 in order to experience the difference between the 4 seat Track Pack cars versus the 2 seat R models and drove many of these cool GT350/R's back to back that day therefore I know exactly how the early production Track Pack cars drove especially compared to the R model.

Based on logging many miles with both Track Pack and Tech Pack 2015 GT350 cars which also includes my track experience at Sebring I certainly know how these cars perform and drive.

:sunglasses:

DSCF1584.JPG
All great looking cars and I'm sure it was fun driving the other two. I don't understand buying more than one of the same thing, but I don't understand owning and not driving either. Just a different way to do things. Nothing wrong with it.
 

PP0001

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
4,723
Reaction score
5,422
Location
Coachella Valley & Valley of the Sun
Vehicle(s)
2020 MDX PMC #91
All great looking cars and I'm sure it was fun driving the other two. I don't understand buying more than one of the same thing, but I don't understand owning and not driving either. Just a different way to do things. Nothing wrong with it.
Agreed that we all have different ways of doing things and I am the first to admit that I may be different including enjoying owning Base R's more than Electronic Package R's as I have had both but do understand why the Electronic Package R's are much more popular.

Driving F0079 and F0080 was a great deal of fun as I ended up storing them in my garage for ~6 months with both of these cars sitting right beside F0077 during that time period.

While taking care of and driving F0080 I fell in love with that car based on the overall driving experience, very unqiue color/stripe combinaton along with the interesting story of F0080 being an evaluation/test vehicle that was sent to Ford's Fomoco/Quality Test Fleet plant in Allen Park for evaluation/testing shortly after production in July and then assigned to a Ford executive in September.

The Ford exec put on ~12,000 miles on F0080 over the next 10 months and then turned it in to Manheim Auto auction whereby a dealership in PA bought the car and shortly thereafter a great friend of mine then purchased the car from them.

I absolutely love driving this car and have driven it very hard on many occasions and it has never failed me once.

The fact that F0080 was the only 2015 GT350/R built in Race Red and Blue OTT stripes of the 137 cars assembled is just a bonus.
 

Wildcardfox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
886
Reaction score
1,489
Location
CA
First Name
Brett
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT350R
Not a huge channel but it popped up on my feed.

 

Wildcardfox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
886
Reaction score
1,489
Location
CA
First Name
Brett
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT350R
One more that’s all about the discussion of values and auction sales.
 
Advertisement

 
16 - CJ Pony Parts - 2
Advertisement
Top