PP2...........starting to appear at dealerships

[Infidex]

I'll be @ the Philly show next weekend. If there is a PP2 thre I'll ask what the deal with the spoiler is.

I can confirm spoiler is wrong and Ford is swapping it with correct one on my PP2.

Sponsored

 

[bootlegger]

I can confirm spoiler is wrong and Ford is swapping it with correct one on my PP2.

Good to hear. Still better than having 2 different tail lights. :lol:

 

[S550Boss]

It's time to put an end to this idea that PP2 provides any viable HPDE track capability. I'm a Ford guy all the way back (in fact back to the 2nd ever Ford dealer in PA!), and it pains me to say this, but it's true (and I've been driving and instructing in track events for 35 years).
The PP1 seriously and completely lost against the SS 1LE in a Motor Trend test this month, and the PP2 option isn't going to make enough of a difference for HPDE. PP2 is just a little more than a PP1 with bigger tires. Why - because none of the rest of the critical hardware for track use is part of PP1 or PP2.
And the PP2s that we are seeing are all close to 49k dollars... for 47k you can get a SS 1LE that is fully loaded with all the critical hardware *and* includes an extensive track recorder system (that is just phenomenal).
Bottom-line hardware differences: what PP1 and PP2 don't include are supplemental coolers for the transmission and differential that the GT350 has - and that the SS 1LE has. And the 2-peice rotors and biggest braking system from the GT350 (also replacing the pathetic iron sliding single piston rear brakes).
Sure, you might go to some little track like Nelson Ledges and do a few 100+ MPH laps (I have), or the parade laps at a Ford meet. But step around the corner to Watkins Glen (I have), learn how to drive the car hard and well, and the PP2 will fail just as quickly as the PP1 or the early GT350s without their track pack (which those owners should have known to order). There is nothing worse than going home early from a track event because your car is in limp home mode, or because it runs out of brakes.
Don't even think about adding a transmission cooler: it'll be prohibitively expensive (and the GT transmission is inherently hobbled by it's tiny fluid capacity anyway - only 1/3 the capacity of the Camaro's transmission). And a differential cooler can be added but is again prohibitively expensive. Cobbling together coolers for both of these is going to be 4-5K by the time it's in... and it will never be as good or as transparent as the factory coolers are on the GT350 or SS1LE.
Ford knows the PP2 isn't a track car - they told us that exactly at the press launch. And at the GT350 press launch a few years ago, I spent hours with their product folks looking over the hundreds of differences between the base car and the GT350.
You can't make something that isn't intended to be a track car into a track car without a lot of angst and cubic dollars... and even then it's never as good.
Ford knows this from it's own experiences with the last Mustang, including the Boss (which made for a lousy track car, I had one) and GT500 programs. Both were full of bandaids and excuses... great engines, an awful suspension and middling brakes. The fact that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP1 beats the Boss302 on most circuits was very telling about the advantages of the new IRS combined with the new front suspension. But it wasn't enough.
To make that car into a GT350, Ford literally changed hundreds of parts - the reason why the GT350 is so expensive. The suspension parts are almost entirely different - many even both lighter and stronger (and could help take some weight out of the base Mustang, which is now a heavier car than the Camaro). Ford could offer all of the GT350 brakes and suspension parts as a PP for the GT, leaving the car only slightly less capable than the GT350 (which would still have the better engine and probably suspension tuning). This could even lower the price of the GT350, which is too expensive compared to the Camaro, and which will force the GT500 price to be even higher than the Camaro ZL1. I asked this question at the GT350 press launch after a day of looking over all of the different parts, picking up many of them with my hands, and driving the GT350R on the track. The engineers and product planners all expressed their frustration and angst with where they are.
Ford has itself in a bind here... as they have done so many times before. Always with great ideas, the occasional brilliance, but almost always loosing in execution in the end (look at the big disappointment in the Focus RS - fantastic engineering let down by a head gasket design screw up) .
So while the mid-term Mustang updates initially looked great (and the magnetic suspension is worth every single dollar), the Camaro is getting it's own mid-term updates this summer for their 2019 model. And while the upcoming S650 is probably just the current S550 slightly evolved (again, because that's all S550 over S197 was), the Camaro in 2-3 years will get the updated Alpha chassis that Cadillac is introducing in 2019 which will be lighter and stronger yet.
So the S550-era battle is lost as far as the GT price range is concerned. We'll have the publicity of the GT500 (which doensd't match up against the Camaro - the ZL1 is a bit less and the upcoming Z28 is a bit more) but otherwise all the cards are played (maybe there is a GT350 with dual injection? - looks like not).
What should Ford do for S650 (because apparently that has just been finalized)? Take the GT350 stronger/lighter suspension parts (and front radiator structure) and make then standard across the board: volume = cost savings. Take the aluminum lessons learned and introduce aluminum hood, roof, and doors - the next Camaro will have those too so they are necessary. Redouble the focus on leveraging the expertise of the worldwide engineering groups to benefit the Mustang - they are a huge source of revenue and GM has already lost an entire generation in this race. Let Ford of Europe do more of the engineering - they have lightweight design expertise as well as suspension tuning experience that Dearborn never had in the mainstream. That'll also help the Mustang compete better in Europe - where while it outsells other sports cars at the moment, it is also known for it's clumsy and heavy handling. This worldwide expertise is something that GM doesn't have.

 

[superman07]

He’s right you know

 

[GT6555]

It's time to put an end to this idea that PP2 provides any viable track capability. I'm a Ford guy all the way back (in fact back to the 2nd ever Ford dealer in PA!), and it pains me to say this, but it's true (and I've been driving and instructing in track events for 35 years).
The PP1 seriously and completely lost against the SS 1LE in a Motor Trend test this month, the PP2 isn't going to make enough of a difference to pull off a win. It's just a little more than a PP1 with bigger tires. Why - because none of the rest of the important hardware is part of PP1 or PP2.
And the PP2s that we are seeing are all close to 49k dollars... for 47k you can get a SS 1LE that is fully loaded and includes an extensive track recorder system (that is just phenomenal).
Bottom-line hardware differences: what PP1 and PP2 don't include are supplemental coolers for the transmission and differential that the GT350 has - and that the SS 1LE has. And the 2-peice rotors and biggest braking system from the GT350 (also replacing the pathetic iron sliding single piston rear brakes).
Sure, you might go to some little track like Nelson Ledges and do a few 100+ MPH laps (I have), or the parade laps at a Ford meet. But step around the corner to Watkins Glen (I have), learn how to drive the car hard and well, and the PP2 will fail just as quickly as the PP1 or the early GT350s without their track pack (which those owners should have known to order). There is nothing worse than going home early from a track event because your car is in limp home mode, or because it runs out of brakes.
Don't even think about adding a transmission cooler: it'll be prohibitively expensive (and the GT transmission is inherently hobbled by it's tiny fluid capacity anyway - only 1/3 the capacity of the Camaro's transmission). And a differential cooler can be added but is again prohibitively expensive. Cobbling together coolers for both of these is going to be 4-5K by the time it's in... and it will never be as good or as transparent as the factory coolers are on the GT350 or SS1LE.
Ford knows the PP2 isn't a track car - they told us that exactly at the press launch. And at the GT350 press launch a few years ago, I spent hours with their product folks looking over the hundreds of differences between the base car and the GT350.
You can't make something that isn't intended to be a track car into a track car without a lot of angst and cubic dollars... and even then it's never as good.
Ford knows this from it's own experiences with the last Mustang, including the Boss (which made for a lousy track car, I had one) and GT500 programs. Both were full of bandaids and excuses... great engines, an awful suspension and middling brakes. The fact that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP1 beats the Boss302 on most circuits was very telling about the advantages of the new IRS combined with the new front suspension. But it wasn't enough.
To make that car into a GT350, Ford literally changed hundreds of parts - the reason why the GT350 is so expensive. The suspension parts are almost entirely different - many even both lighter and stronger (and could help take some weight out of the base Mustang, which is now a heavier car than the Camaro). Ford could offer all of the GT350 brakes and suspension parts as a PP for the GT, leaving the car only slightly less capable than the GT350 (which would still have the better engine and probably suspension tuning). This could even lower the price of the GT350, which is too expensive compared to the Camaro, and which will force the GT500 price to be even higher than the Camaro ZL1. I asked this question at the GT350 press launch after a day of looking over all of the different parts, picking up many of them with my hands, and driving the GT350R on the track. The engineers and product planners all expressed their frustration and angst with where they are.
Ford has itself in a bind here... as they have done so many times before. Always with great ideas, the occasional brilliance, but almost always loosing in execution in the end (look at the big disappointment in the Focus RS - fantastic engineering let down by a head gasket design screw up) .
So while the mid-term Mustang updates initially looked great (and the magnetic suspension is worth every single dollar), the Camaro is getting it's own mid-term updates this summer for their 2019 model. And while the upcoming S650 is probably just the current S550 slightly evolved (again, because that's all S550 over S197 was), the Camaro in 2-3 years will get the updated Alpha chassis that Cadillac is introducing in 2019 which will be lighter and stronger yet.
So the S550-era battle is lost as far as the GT price range is concerned. We'll have the publicity of the GT500 (which doensd't match up against the Camaro - the ZL1 is a bit less and the upcoming Z28 is a bit more) but otherwise all the cards are played (maybe there is a GT350 with dual injection? - looks like not).
What should Ford do for S650 (because apparently that has just been finalized)? Take the GT350 stronger/lighter suspension parts (and front radiator structure) and make then standard across the board: volume = cost savings. Take the aluminum lessons learned and introduce aluminum hood, roof, and doors - the next Camaro will have those too so they are necessary. Redouble the focus on leveraging the expertise of the worldwide engineering groups to benefit the Mustang - they are a huge source of revenue and GM has already lost an entire generation in this race. Let Ford of Europe do more of the engineering - they have lightweight design expertise as well as suspension tuning experience that Dearborn never had in the mainstream. That'll also help the Mustang compete better in Europe - where while it outsells other sports cars at the moment, it is also known for it's clumsy and heavy handling. This worldwide expertise is something that GM doesn't have.

Very nicely written. You made me feel really bad about myself for ordering PP2 and not looking into the Camaro more... but then I remind myself that I'm not trying to have a track car or race on the street like I did when I was 18 with my 2003 GT. I'm really going for PP2 because I want a quick, unique toy, and while the camaro out performs the mustang, I still feel the mustang has more quality features outside of a slower track time than the camaro. I'm not a ford guy either, always wanted a WS6 or an SS before I got my 03 GT. There's a lot of hate going around for PP2 but I still think its going to be a pretty cool car to have.

 

[S550Boss]

Very nicely written. You made me feel really bad about myself for ordering PP2 and not looking into the Camaro more... but then I remind myself that I'm not trying to have a track car or race on the street like I did when I was 18 with my 2003 GT. I'm really going for PP2 because I want a quick, unique toy, and while the camaro out performs the mustang, I still feel the mustang has more quality features outside of a slower track time than the camaro. I'm not a ford guy either, always wanted a WS6 or an SS before I got my 03 GT. There's a lot of hate going around for PP2 but I still think its going to be a pretty cool car to have.

Thanks.. I hated to write it but it's true. And I hated to read that Motor Trend article but I already know it from my own experience with both cars. Ford needs to do better... and they are focusing elsewhere by necessity.
One more thing about the Camaro: I have instructed many students with them... SS 1LE (and a ZL1 1LE, OMG) are fabulous on track... except they are a PITA to see out of. Several novice students I've seen or had have almost run them into other cars because they can't see what is going on around them (a 370Z is almost as bad for the same design reasons). At 100-125 on some spots in some turns this is outright dangerous. The Camaro styling is purely kid stuff, just as kid stuff as their "bumblebee" editions (how embarrassing). If they would just grow up and get rid of that styling... which is going to take a complete next generation... then the Mustang would really be in trouble because of the inherently superior Alpha platform and the advantages of sharing parts, assembly and supply chain with the ATS/CTS is a huge advantage.
Everything I've said is in the context of HPDE events. It doesn't apply to street driving, where the Mustang is far more usable than the Camaro. For the street I'd like to have a Bullitt (because I'm a fan of the movie), or a convertible (which are useless for track events, if not verbotten).
Ford has a lot of problems (did I mention no advertising at all for the best midsize car there is - the Fusion? - they don't even try to sell it) and challenges. The EcoBoost engine budget was just significantly cut, electric is everything followed by self-driving. Whatever we as enthusiasts feel about this, clearly we are getting the short end of the overall budget here unless the Mustang sales in the mainstream continue to do well and grow worldwide (it was a very smart move by Ford to put this on sale worldwide).
Lets not forget that GM has a 5.5L DOHC V-8 engine coming... some years off for the Camaro but it will be there. a 7-speed might be an option for 2019 (better gear ratios)... and the 6.2l naturally aspirated engine can easily have more HP and torque if needed (watch this space since the 2019 SS engine will certainly jump ahead of the latest Coyote in HP and it already beats it hands-down in torque by an insurmountable 35 lb-ft. And option-for-option, the Camaro is still 150 pounds lighter than the Mustang.
For HPDE driving... after all these years I think that it might be high time to build a dedicated car for these events (rather than switching cars every couple of years) and it wouldn't be a Mustang or Camaro. Both are too heavy. But that's another topic, and a controversy.

 

[9secondko]

So much conjecture.

Let's see what it actually runs and then deal with the results.

 

[Mustang1260]

So much conjecture.

Let's see what it actually runs and then deal with the results.

Conjecture as to what?

Mustangs are fantastic street cars- very very few owners really track. The PP2 should make a great canyon carver and provide a ball load of fun.

On road courses the lack of coolers, and the need for better brakes will clearly tell the story over time as to PP2 cars The blower on the GT500 wont help the situtation in the future much unless they come up with some great engine cooling---again, op is talking about extended road course running. Not one lap wonders and canyon carvers where the Mustang is still king (cant see a damn thing out of a Camaro).

 

[Competition Orange]

[MENTION=6599]S550Boss[/MENTION] 2015 GT PP here. I'll be glad to meet you at a local road course to prove that all these "sub par" models you mention still have the chops to throw down.

Is the 1LE SS faster than the S550 GTs? Sure. Is the GT350? Yep.

Are 99.5% of their drivers worth a shit? nope.

Having the best car isn't really a thing, there's always something faster, better, etc. The guy that gets on track the most, gets the experience and can extract the most from the car they have, those are the winners.

 

[Mustang1260]

[MENTION=6599]S550Boss[/MENTION] 2015 GT PP here. I'll be glad to meet you at a local road course to prove that all these "sub par" models you mention still have the chops to throw down.

Is the 1LE SS faster than the S550 GTs? Sure. Is the GT350? Yep.

Are 99.5% of their drivers worth a shit? nope.

Having the best car isn't really a thing, there's always something faster, better, etc. The guy that gets on track the most, gets the experience and can extract the most from the car they have, those are the winners.

Chill dude, sorry but your manhood aint tied up in a car. The PP2 is a fine edition to the GT Mustang line up but guys are also going wild as to claims about it--claims usually by guys who aint ever been on a road course ( the same guys who call Recarros race seats- they aint).

He started a discussion on weaknesses the in platform (serious lack kf factory cooling) has for serious road course guys..not fan boys. He clearly acknowledge serious road course tracks and was not speaking to road use (corner carving back road runners).

Based upon attitude (usually in direct opposite relation to actual ability) he doesn't have much to sorry about you in a throw down.

 

[Competition Orange]

Chill dude, sorry but your manhood aint tied up in a car. The PP2 is a fine edition to the GT Mustang line up but guys are also going wild as to claims about it--claims usually by guys who aint ever been on a road course ( the same guys who call Recarros race seats- they aint).

He started a discussion on weaknesses the in platform (serious lack kf factory cooling) has for serious road course guys..not fan boys. He clearly acknowledge serious road course tracks and was not speaking to road use (corner carving back road runners).

Based upon attitude (usually in direct opposite relation to actual ability) he doesn't have much to sorry about you in a throw down.

If you actually read my post all I said was that in relationship to the cars we're talking about, it's the driver. If you took anything else from it, you missed the point.

 

[stang-man]

Thanks.. I hated to write it but it's true. And I hated to read that Motor Trend article but I already know it from my own experience with both cars. Ford needs to do better... and they are focusing elsewhere by necessity.
One more thing about the Camaro: I have instructed many students with them... SS 1LE (and a ZL1 1LE, OMG) are fabulous on track... except they are a PITA to see out of. Several novice students I've seen or had have almost run them into other cars because they can't see what is going on around them (a 370Z is almost as bad for the same design reasons). At 100-125 on some spots in some turns this is outright dangerous. The Camaro styling is purely kid stuff, just as kid stuff as their "bumblebee" editions (how embarrassing). If they would just grow up and get rid of that styling... which is going to take a complete next generation... then the Mustang would really be in trouble because of the inherently superior Alpha platform and the advantages of sharing parts, assembly and supply chain with the ATS/CTS is a huge advantage.
Everything I've said is in the context of HPDE events. It doesn't apply to street driving, where the Mustang is far more usable than the Camaro. For the street I'd like to have a Bullitt (because I'm a fan of the movie), or a convertible (which are useless for track events, if not verbotten).
Ford has a lot of problems (did I mention no advertising at all for the best midsize car there is - the Fusion? - they don't even try to sell it) and challenges. The EcoBoost engine budget was just significantly cut, electric is everything followed by self-driving. Whatever we as enthusiasts feel about this, clearly we are getting the short end of the overall budget here unless the Mustang sales in the mainstream continue to do well and grow worldwide (it was a very smart move by Ford to put this on sale worldwide).
Lets not forget that GM has a 5.5L DOHC V-8 engine coming... some years off for the Camaro but it will be there. a 7-speed might be an option for 2019 (better gear ratios)... and the 6.2l naturally aspirated engine can easily have more HP and torque if needed (watch this space since the 2019 SS engine will certainly jump ahead of the latest Coyote in HP and it already beats it hands-down in torque by an insurmountable 35 lb-ft. And option-for-option, the Camaro is still 150 pounds lighter than the Mustang.
For HPDE driving... after all these years I think that it might be high time to build a dedicated car for these events (rather than switching cars every couple of years) and it wouldn't be a Mustang or Camaro. Both are too heavy. But that's another topic, and a controversy.

Well written, yep the Camaro is faster, yes it handles better.
I need a daily driver that is practical, that I can see out of and does not look like a cartoon vehicle, I chose a Mustang.
If I wanted a track car I would buy a vet or build a Miata.

 

[jake_zx2]

The PP1 seriously and completely lost against the SS 1LE in a Motor Trend test this month, and the PP2 option isn't going to make enough of a difference for HPDE. PP2 is just a little more than a PP1 with bigger tires. Why - because none of the rest of the critical hardware for track use is part of PP1 or PP2. PP2 has completely different suspension tuning, chassis bracing, steering and ABS calibration, lighter and MUCH wider wheel/tire setup... you know, most of the differences between a GT and a GT350. I'm sure it'll do just fine against the 1LE, at least for one lap
And the PP2s that we are seeing are all close to 49k dollars... for 47k you can get a SS 1LE that is fully loaded with all the critical hardware *and* includes an extensive track recorder system (that is just phenomenal).
Bottom-line hardware differences: what PP1 and PP2 don't include are supplemental coolers for the transmission and differential that the GT350 has - and that the SS 1LE has. And the 2-peice rotors and biggest braking system from the GT350 (also replacing the pathetic iron sliding single piston rear brakes). PP2 starting price is lower than the 1LE, and a fully optioned 1LE is FAR more than $47k, especially since they now offer it in 2SS guise. Ford performance announced a PDR available for Sync 3, but I don't know if that has been implemented yet. Brakes on the PP2 are underwhelming, but still more than enough... keep in mind, the GT350 has some of the best braking in the whole auto industry. a standard GT doesn't need that, though 1 piece rear calipers carried over from the GT350 would have been appreciated
Sure, you might go to some little track like Nelson Ledges and do a few 100+ MPH laps (I have), or the parade laps at a Ford meet. But step around the corner to Watkins Glen (I have), learn how to drive the car hard and well, and the PP2 will fail just as quickly as the PP1 or the early GT350s without their track pack (which those owners should have known to order). There is nothing worse than going home early from a track event because your car is in limp home mode, or because it runs out of brakes.
Don't even think about adding a transmission cooler: it'll be prohibitively expensive (and the GT transmission is inherently hobbled by it's tiny fluid capacity anyway - only 1/3 the capacity of the Camaro's transmission). And a differential cooler can be added but is again prohibitively expensive. Cobbling together coolers for both of these is going to be 4-5K by the time it's in... and it will never be as good or as transparent as the factory coolers are on the GT350 or SS1LE.
This is 100% accurate, I truly don't understand why Ford didn't add coolers to the PP2
Ford knows the PP2 isn't a track car - they told us that exactly at the press launch. And at the GT350 press launch a few years ago, I spent hours with their product folks looking over the hundreds of differences between the base car and the GT350. True
You can't make something that isn't intended to be a track car into a track car without a lot of angst and cubic dollars... and even then it's never as good. False, Camaro and Mustang are proof. They are by no means meant to be track cars, but they're perfectly competitive with just a bit of money dumped into them
Ford knows this from it's own experiences with the last Mustang, including the Boss (which made for a lousy track car, I had one) and GT500 programs. Both were full of bandaids and excuses... great engines, an awful suspension and middling brakes. The fact that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP1 beats the Boss302 on most circuits was very telling about the advantages of the new IRS combined with the new front suspension. But it wasn't enough. The Boss was an incredible track car for it's time... was revered as the greatest handling mustang ever made and beat BMW M3 lap times. I feel that your issue is that you're confusing what this car's purpose is... its not meant to drive like a miata. if it were, they would give it 2 seats, no roof, and a few less inches of bulk in every direction
To make that car into a GT350, Ford literally changed hundreds of parts - the reason why the GT350 is so expensive. The suspension parts are almost entirely different - many even both lighter and stronger (and could help take some weight out of the base Mustang, which is now a heavier car than the Camaro) The only significantly different parts are the hubs and control arms, and the hubs were mainly changed to mount the calipers radially. Ford could offer all of the GT350 brakes and suspension parts as a PP for the GT, leaving the car only slightly less capable than the GT350 (which would still have the better engine and probably suspension tuning) Most of the PP2 suspension parts are GT350 takeoffs, and the car will certainly run faster lap times than a standard GT350. Other than coolers, I don't know what more you want out of it. This could even lower the price of the GT350, which is too expensive compared to the Camaro, and which will force the GT500 price to be even higher than the Camaro ZL1. I asked this question at the GT350 press launch after a day of looking over all of the different parts, picking up many of them with my hands, and driving the GT350R on the track. The engineers and product planners all expressed their frustration and angst with where they are.
Ford has itself in a bind here... as they have done so many times before. Always with great ideas, the occasional brilliance, but almost always loosing in execution in the end (look at the big disappointment in the Focus RS - fantastic engineering let down by a head gasket design screw up) .
So while the mid-term Mustang updates initially looked great (and the magnetic suspension is worth every single dollar), the Camaro is getting it's own mid-term updates this summer for their 2019 model will likely be mostly styling-based. Camaro mid-model refreshes typically don't get drastic updates. Likely a carryover 7 speed manual from the camaro, and a different body. Power increase likely won't happen unless the Corvette gets a power increase (also doubtful).
What should Ford do for S650 (because apparently that has just been finalized)? Take the GT350 stronger/lighter suspension parts (and front radiator structure) and make then standard across the board: volume = cost savings. Take the aluminum lessons learned and introduce aluminum hood, roof, and doors They aleady use a lot of aluminum on body panels, they need to focus on lightened subframes... maybe the Carbon Fiber Composite unit they've been experimenting with? - the next Camaro will have those too so they are necessary. Redouble the focus on leveraging the expertise of the worldwide engineering groups to benefit the Mustang - they are a huge source of revenue and GM has already lost an entire generation in this race. Let Ford of Europe do more of the engineering - they have lightweight design expertise as well as suspension tuning experience that Dearborn never had in the mainstream. That'll also help the Mustang compete better in Europe - where while it outsells other sports cars at the moment, it is also known for it's clumsy and heavy handling. This worldwide expertise is something that GM doesn't have.

In red

 

[Coyote Red]

Granted the camaro is superior on track stock and if I did road courses regularly I'd have a car that could handle the abuse/fun. I believe an enjoyable/fast mustang can be "built" and yes the cost is prohibitive and sometimes stupid to try and do. Depending on the "usage" again, dedicated or not. I am building for my personal use a R/T pony capable of track usage for instructional purposes. You must pay to play. See you in the twisty's!

 

[bootlegger]

Why do people think diff and trans coolers are ungodly expensive? Do they just rely on shops to do all the work? A trans cooler kit is about $600, and the diff cooler kits I have seen run around $1k. Any real track junkie would see that as next to nothing when compared to all the other costs involved with racing. The brakes are just fine for stock power levels. I wouldn't touch them unless I added a few power mods.

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