PP2...........starting to appear at dealerships

Discussion in 'Mustang S550 General Forums' started by 4 ROUSH, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Competition Orange

    Competition Orange Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in this post is reasonable, imo.
     
  2. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    How so? Do you not realize that tires make a MASSIVE impact on lap times, especially when they're a sticker compound and 20mm wider? Hell, the MPSS vs MPSC2 is what makes most of the difference between GT350 and GT350R, and the R is quite a good bit faster than the standard 350. How is it unreasonable to see 2 cars that are 1 second apart, see another that's 3 seconds faster around a shorter track, and think "Yeah, that should be faster"?
     
  3. Competition Orange

    Competition Orange Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the education. What you're doing is the definition of bench racing.
     
  4. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    Or, reasonable speculation. But please, if you're so confident that I'm wrong, explain why. Saying someone is wrong without any contradicting evidence is counterproductive
     
  5. UAmach1

    UAmach1 Bullitt Hopefull

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    Name any discussion about PP2 performance that ISN'T bench racing right now. Without a car that is all you can do is guess/estimate and make reasonable assumptions.
     
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  6. Competition Orange

    Competition Orange Well-Known Member

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    I think you have your answer then. You could always stop grasping at straws and wait for the results instead of making half baked guesses about a car very few will "track" with any effectiveness.
     
  7. Hivel

    Hivel Well-Known Member

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    #307 Hivel, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  8. UAmach1

    UAmach1 Bullitt Hopefull

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    Warranty support?
     
  9. MrCincinnati

    MrCincinnati Well-Known Member

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    If tires don’t completely close the gap between a GT350 and R, why would you assume they allow a car (pp2) with an even bigger gap (including a larger power to weight ratio gap) not only close the gap but “certainly” overcome the otherwise faster car?

    I’m not big on bench racing or even which car is actually faster. But if you’re going to make these guesses at least apply your logic, whatever that may be, in an unbiased manner... otherwise it comes off as grasping, IMHO
     
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  10. UAmach1

    UAmach1 Bullitt Hopefull

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    What is the gap between 350 and R on the same tire?
     
  11. MrCincinnati

    MrCincinnati Well-Known Member

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    No clue. But we can all agree it would not be faster...

    The pp2 has less power, a narrower power band and a lower rev limit. So, depending on the track you’d need to shift more often and you’d be making less power pretty much everywhere. So in this benchracing scenario we’re assuming sc2 tires bridge and overcome that gap.. that’s a helluva tire.

    I think the pp2 will be fast. How fast compared to a 350? Nobody knows. But to speak with the certainty of “certainly” is a bit of a stretch given better tires are this bench race’s difference maker.
     
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  12. mvfjet

    mvfjet Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I've ever seen a base or Track Pack GT350 lap time comparison. If there is one someone link it please.

    A GT350 vs 1LE comparison would be great.
     
  13. 02gtnh

    02gtnh Well-Known Member

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    The first head2head between the 350R and Z28 also did track time with the GT350 track pack at the same time. The R beat the TP by 2.95 sec. this is the only GT350 track time since it’s release. Why they haven’t done more is surprising due to more being sold.:shrug:

    http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/chuckwalla-valley-raceway
     
  14. UAmach1

    UAmach1 Bullitt Hopefull

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    Well if I use horrible math and based on the FP promo vid, and that story then the difference between the GT PP2 and GT350 should be about 4 seconds.
     
  15. MrCincinnati

    MrCincinnati Well-Known Member

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    I think something else missing from this is a bit of reality for the comparisons. An owner that tracks their gt350 with any seriousness is probably going to throw track rubber on it eventually. Likewise - the PP2 owner probably isn’t going to purchase the car for the track so the cup2s are going to come off for street driving (unless the owner garage queens the car or likes to buy tires more often than oil). So on the street, in a realistic scenario - the cars will likely have more evenly matched rubber. On the track - the same.

    It’s actually kind of unfortunate Ford is putting sc2s on the pp2. Assuming one doesn’t buy a GT to garage it - those tires are coming right off unless you’re some weird combination of wanting to spend $1500 every 5k mi on tires but not on an upgraded model of the same car.
     
  16. w3rkn

    w3rkn Well-Known Member

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    I really do not think you are giving the Gen 3 Coyote enough credit.


    If you have seen the Voodoo & Gen3's powerband overlapped ?, you would see that the GT has more power until about 5,400rpms. And then the fast-breathing voodoo takes over.

    Additionally, there is only 830 rpms and 66hp separating the gen3 and the voodoo..! (I am sure a stock Bullitt/tuned/upgraded Gen3 would match the GT350 pretty evenly, on most engine metrics.)

    Brakes & cooling the main unknown factor for the PP2. (See GT350/GT500 for upgrades.)
     
  17. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    I'm being completely unbiased, as I'm a HUGE fan of the GT350 and own neither car. Really, if I had the money, I'd still buy a GT350 instead of a PP2, but that doesn't change the fact that I still think a PP2 will be faster
    Only about 60hp less, actually has a wider power band, and only 850rpm lower, which really doesn't mean anything. And no, you'd probably be shifting more often in the GT350 because of how close the gear ratios are. Not to mention, these are all minor compared to the MASSIVE effect of tires. Tires can literally shave FULL SECONDS off a lap time. Have you ever been to a track? If so, you should know what a huge difference even just a different brand of tire in a similar compound can make
    With this, you're getting into a whole different scenario of mods. If you're going to throw stickier tires at a GT350, why not throw an E85 tune at a PP2 to make the same power as a GT350? Or a bigger set of brakes? Personally, if I do get a PP2, I already have a spare set of wheels that I'll use for street driving. The PP2 wheels will be for track days. Call it a garage queen if you want, but the 3k miles or so that it does get driven a year, it'll get driven hard
     
  18. MrCincinnati

    MrCincinnati Well-Known Member

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    On a track the voodoo wouldn’t get below about the rpm threshold that you state above is where it dominates. It’s called keeping it in the power band - and since there’s an extra 830rpm and 66hp that means the whole time around the track it’s shifting later and making more power. Not underestimating the coyote at all. Just stating facts: it makes less power everywhere that matters for these benchrace dreams.
     
  19. MrCincinnati

    MrCincinnati Well-Known Member

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    There’s no need to incorporate caps or foolishness into this conversation. “Have you ever been to a track?” You’re getting emotional now. Please leave that kind of discourse out of our communications.

    Putting track tires on a car that is going to a track and street tires on a car that’s mainly on the street is not a “mod” on the same level as an e85 tune. It’s common sense and practice. You yourself even verify that by what you’ve said above about having two sets of rims. You’re basically arguing that a car you haven’t driven might or must be faster than another car (you also haven’t driven?) in you’re imagination — while questioning if I’ve been to a track. Have you driven a pp2? A gt350? At a track? How many guys at that track running OEM rubber? Would you if you had a gt350? Does it really matter that ford put street rubber on a 350 and track compound on a pp2 in your mind? Stop paper racing and take some real world consideration to your justifications of your future purchase.
     
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  20. bootlegger

    bootlegger Enginerd

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    Basically. But only on the GT350, so it's not really worth it for a GT.
     
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