PP2 Cooling Upgrades? Per criticism…

[Arknsawchuck]

Then don't go staggered. Get some 19x11 wheels front and rear with 305 wide tires.
Staggered wheels/tires on a Mustang are for drag racers and people chasing 70's nostalgia.

Then why does the GT350, GT500 and Mach1HP and come with staggered setups?

 

[Ewheels]

Then why does the GT350, GT500 and Mach1HP and come with staggered setups?

Because Ford has sales targets that are far more important than making the best handling car they could. Ford is in the business of making money (like any successful business), not making great sports cars.

Staggered tire sizes on a front-heavy car will make the car understeer. Understeer is far more controllable and safe for the average driver than a car that wants to oversteer. Safe and controllable cars are easier to sell than something that wants to swing out and kill you.


Same exact reason as to why every single car now has more rear camber than front...to intentionally induce understeer.

 

[Arknsawchuck]

Because Ford has sales targets that are far more important than making the best handling car they could. Ford is in the business of making money (like any successful business), not making great sports cars.

Staggered tire sizes on a front-heavy car will make the car understeer. Understeer is far more controllable and safe for the average driver than a car that wants to oversteer. Safe and controllable cars are easier to sell than something that wants to swing out and kill you.


Same exact reason as to why every single car now has more rear camber than front...to intentionally induce understeer.

While I agree to a degree with what you are saying, there are other things such as sway bars and tire pressure that will also cause the same under steer. A staggered setup that is within reason, say 295 front and 305 rear is not a crash and burn situation or something only drag cars would have.

 

[Ewheels]

While I agree to a degree with what you are saying, there are other things such as sway bars and tire pressure that will also cause the same under steer. A staggered setup that is within reason, say 295 front and 305 rear is not a crash and burn situation or something only drag cars would have.

But at the same time, why put a 295 on the front when you can fit a 305 and get that much more grip and then also be able to rotate the tires?

If that's how the car came, OK, but there is no reason to buy staggered in the aftermarket unless.........drag racing or chasing 70's nostalgia.
I see this all the time on M6G "I like the look of stagger." That would be fair if one wanted fat and skinnies but a 285/305 setup......that's less than an inch stagger - no one will be able to tell the difference.

 

[luc]

While I agree to a degree with what you are saying, there are other things such as sway bars and tire pressure that will also cause the same under steer. A staggered setup that is within reason, say 295 front and 305 rear is not a crash and burn situation or something only drag cars would have.

For optimum handling, from neutral to very slight oversteer,
You want wider tires on the side that carry the more weight… a la Porsche..
By far the biggest impact on handling is tires and camber, way before sway bars
Ewheel is 100% right
An understeering car is much safer/easier for the average driver, like 99.99% of the population
The reason that it is safer/easier is because the natural reaction when the front end of a car want to go straight and not turn in a curve, is to lift and even brake
By doing so, weight is transferred to the front tires and they regain grip and the car turn

 

[Arknsawchuck]

But at the same time, why put a 295 on the front when you can fit a 305 and get that much more grip and then also be able to rotate the tires?

If that's how the car came, OK, but there is no reason to buy staggered in the aftermarket unless.........drag racing or chasing 70's nostalgia.
I see this all the time on M6G "I like the look of stagger." That would be fair if one wanted fat and skinnies but a 285/305 setup......that's less than an inch stagger - no one will be able to tell the difference.

I agree that for tire life squared is much better. I’m just saying that staggered isnt a death sentence on the track. From your logic the only s550 that ford has done right for track use is the PP2. Even the GT350R is staggered and it is built for track use just like the handling/track pack cars.

 

[Ewheels]

I agree that for tire life squared is much better. I’m just saying that staggered isnt a death sentence on the track. From your logic the only s550 that ford has done right for track use is the PP2. Even the GT350R is staggered and it is built for track use just like the handling/track pack cars.

Death sentence, no, but as I previously said, why would you intentionally buy staggered when you can fit an equally large tire on the front?
If that's how your car came, great. If you have the base spec of 235 square or the PP1 package of 255/275 and are looking to upgrade to get the most performance possible, it makes no sense to go 285/305 when you can fit 305 on the front as well.

I know numerous track friends with mustangs and every one of them is 305 square or even 315 square. One of those friends is a national championship winning driver.

I'm simply trying to share knowledge that is essentially common sense in the performance driving world but if you want to beat this to death and argue theory, be my guest.

I don't know why I keep coming back to M6G. There's far too many all-knowing keyboard warriors with no real-world experience. There's a reason 95% of all the track guys left this forum.

I'll see myself out, have a nice day.

 

[plresultsman]

I appreciate your insights.

 

[Howitzer]

Death sentence, no, but as I previously said, why would you intentionally buy staggered when you can fit an equally large tire on the front?
If that's how your car came, great. If you have the base spec of 235 square or the PP1 package of 255/275 and are looking to upgrade to get the most performance possible, it makes no sense to go 285/305 when you can fit 305 on the front as well.

I know numerous track friends with mustangs and every one of them is 305 square or even 315 square. One of those friends is a national championship winning driver.

I'm simply trying to share knowledge that is essentially common sense in the performance driving world but if you want to beat this to death and argue theory, be my guest.

I don't know why I keep coming back to M6G. There's far too many all-knowing keyboard warriors with no real-world experience.

I'll see myself out, have a nice day.

Haha, don't let it get to ya. You're one of a few I value opinions(and in this case, facts) on around here. I know you're also over on track mustangs but still. I've been around a long time and rarely post anything so people like yourself have to pick up the slack.

 

[EFI]

Then why does the GT350, GT500 and Mach1HP and come with staggered setups?

Same reason Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and other "track" capable cars come with the same. Understeer is alot safer for the general public, so they make them more dummy proof.

 

[Ewheels]

Haha, don't let it get to ya. You're one of a few I value opinions(and in this case, facts) on around here. I know you're also over on track mustangs but still. I've been around a long time and rarely post anything so people like yourself have to pick up the slack.

Thank you for the kind words, sir.

 

[RazzaRossa]

When my stock tires are ready to go, I will head your advice Ewheels. I'm not a fan of the staggered stock setup anyhow on my PP1, but that's what Ford provided. Mine is street, no track, so I'll go with 285 square. Heck, I'm in Florida, not many twisties, or hills for that matter.

 

[tosha]

Thank you for the kind words, sir.

Just ignore these stuffy personas that want to argue for the sake of arguing until the world ends. there are people here that value and appreciate real world experience and advise. I picked quite a lot myself from your track build thread. Don't get bogged down with this stuff

 

[Arknsawchuck]

Death sentence, no, but as I previously said, why would you intentionally buy staggered when you can fit an equally large tire on the front?
If that's how your car came, great. If you have the base spec of 235 square or the PP1 package of 255/275 and are looking to upgrade to get the most performance possible, it makes no sense to go 285/305 when you can fit 305 on the front as well.

I know numerous track friends with mustangs and every one of them is 305 square or even 315 square. One of those friends is a national championship winning driver.

I'm simply trying to share knowledge that is essentially common sense in the performance driving world but if you want to beat this to death and argue theory, be my guest.

I don't know why I keep coming back to M6G. There's far too many all-knowing keyboard warriors with no real-world experience. There's a reason 95% of all the track guys left this forum.

I'll see myself out, have a nice day.

So now you're assuming I have no "real world experience ", wasn't aware we knew each other. I'm stating that your statement that staggered is for drag and vintage look is wrong. And I proved it by giving several examples of cars made for track use that are indeed staggered. I never said squared is bad, in fact I run squared tires, not wheels though. Fitting 11" wheels with 305s or bigger in the front won't work on all cars. Sure you can jam spacers behind them. I'm not a spacer fan myself. And I agree with several things you stated, such as squared does give you the ability to rotate the tires. But you saying 285s are useless is totally wrong, and I'll refer you to the GT series of racing where they run 285 tires in the mustangs.

 

[Arknsawchuck]

Same reason Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and other "track" capable cars come with the same. Understeer is alot safer for the general public, so they make them more dummy proof.

So now track cars are for dummies, ok, whatever you think.