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Pain in the rear traction control

BmacIL

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Yes, I understand about driving.

And to add further questions to the mix, after the 1st set of rear brakes I started turning the Advancetrac all the way off all the time. So I'm of the opinion that there may have been an unknown issue with the Advacetrac (there were never any failure dash lights), brake bias, maybe the LSD, or some weird combination of those things.

I also went through rear tires awfully fast, even though I never did burnouts. I bought it new and sold it with about 40k on the clock.

I was glad to get rid of that car. I was pretty certain that something was wrong somewhere that was causing those issues. Plus the fact the car was hit 8 times, the damned thing was just possessed.

The difference to my new '16 PP car is night and day. Really, there's no need for the Advancetrac with these cars. The rear end is so planted, so stable. I've slid the rear out just a bit here and there, and it's easily catchable and benign. None of the snatch and grab and upsetting of the handling like with my 2012 car.
Did you ever check the park brake on your previous car? It might have been engaged constantly at a low level. I can't see how adv trac could cause you to go through pads that fast.
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NoVaGT

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Did you ever check the park brake on your previous car? It might have been engaged constantly at a low level. I can't see how adv trac could cause you to go through pads that fast.
Yeah, I had to replace one rear caliper. Then I took it to a local shop and had the system bled (Brembo brakes, PITA to bleed), and we checked the whole braking system.

Dunno, could have been a sticking emergency brake.....something low-level. The car got horrible MPGs, so it's definitely a possibility.

I do drive pretty hard, and I really do think Advancetrac wasn't shutting all the way off even after holding the button down for 7 seconds and the light coming on.

I'm glad that car is gone. It was a mess. But I got a tremendous trade-in value for it, so there's that.
 

MSMStannyl

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I'm of the considered opinion that such electronic nannies get in the way of learning you and your car's abilities. And of course you also won't increase or improve your own abilities as a driver. If you never exceed your vehicle's mechanical grip limit, you don't know what that limit is or how to operate past it.

Whether in the dry, the wet, or on snow and ice, good drivers like to handle things for themselves. Those electronic nannies just mask poor performance and abilities.
While I would agree with you, I don't think learning you and your car's abilities on public roads is a good idea. I'm pretty sure there are countless Youtube video's proving this point. I'd also wager to say that most of those drivers probably posed similar questions to yours or at least previously complained about the nannies getting in the way.

I'm not trying to be a d**k. I get it. Sometimes you just want to have some fun. I'm just saying that I personally can not see a good reason to be in Track mode with AdvanceTrac off, on public streets. It's all fun and games...until it's not. If you want to play around like that, find an empty parking lot or go to the track.
 
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jasonstang

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This still implies a degree of reliance on the electronics over the traditional notion of "driving for and within conditions". That attitude has as its basis the assumption that you will drive too far beyond your skill set from time to time, that you don't have the discipline to always drive within your limits, and that you shouldn't even be interested in developing that discipline.


Norm
Because clearly professional race drivers never crash. Just look at rallying.
Real world situation is never as predictable as a race track. It could be dirt or oil spill on a corner you never see it coming.
The reason why I said keeping electronics on is exactly for that purpose. Just because one keeps electronics on doesn't mean he is gonna be driving beyond the limit. Why do you need ABS? Because clearly you never need to avoid things under heavy braking? Try that in panic mode you WILL lock those fuckers up.
You can have fun on public roads and the electronic nannies on the S550 is pretty high. The only time I feel mine kicking in is when I do it on purpose such as trying to drift around a corner by giving way too much throttle. Most of the time it keeps quiet.
 

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jasonstang

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Yeah, I had to replace one rear caliper. Then I took it to a local shop and had the system bled (Brembo brakes, PITA to bleed), and we checked the whole braking system.

Dunno, could have been a sticking emergency brake.....something low-level. The car got horrible MPGs, so it's definitely a possibility.

I do drive pretty hard, and I really do think Advancetrac wasn't shutting all the way off even after holding the button down for 7 seconds and the light coming on.

I'm glad that car is gone. It was a mess. But I got a tremendous trade-in value for it, so there's that.
My Toyota has super sensitive electronic nannies that won't allow any wheel spins. I get the system kicked in regularly, the rear pads worn about same speed as the front. Like I said even when the system is engaging, it's only for very short duration. Your problem was clearly seized handbrake mechanism.
Also with seized handbrake, your rear wheels are braking a lot harder than the front so of course it's gonna go out of control very easily. I bet your new car won't do that even with electronics turned on.
 

SR56

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It's part of my ritual to go to Sport+ or Track Mode in pre-flight. I prefer the steering wheel feel and having the ability to get a little loose if I choose to. I don't like that hold back feeling it gives if you have a semi-hard launch.

I learned to drive without e-nannies and didn't need them on previous gen Mustangs I owned that had much less handling capability. I can live without them now.
 

PatrickGT

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This post makes some great points, thanks OP!

I've often wondered why I have to steer around EVERY curve in the road, why can't the car just do it for me? Also, hitting the gas EVERY SINGLE TIME I want to accelerate... what a chore! I should get one of those Lexus that would accelerate for you... hmmm....
 

Norm Peterson

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Because clearly professional race drivers never crash. Just look at rallying.
Which has nothing to do with learning how to drive for the conditions of the moment on the street. Or whether TC is a PITA.


Real world situation is never as predictable as a race track. It could be dirt or oil spill on a corner you never see it coming.
In my experience you're more likely to come across dirt, tire "marbles", oil, coolant, etc. on a race track.

This one involved a shallow puddle of water. Steered around it the first time and had to go off the driving line, tried to straddle it the next time.

[ame]


And I've hit coolant in corners that I never saw but didn't get spit off the road (either time). Keep in mind that my '08 doesn't even have AdvanceTrak before you insist that I absolutely must have it switched on. From my datalogs, the second twitch happened at just under 80 mph.

[ame]


Just because one keeps electronics on doesn't mean he is gonna be driving beyond the limit.
You're still missing my point.

Having them on can and will (for most people driving a car with considerable performance) let them learn to use too much throttle or get into it too quickly. Those people will never learn that it is possible to alter their car's heading in a 60 mph corner ever so slightly by either adding or subtracting tiny amounts of throttle, or that there is real benefit in being able to drive that smoothly. I've been working on this for quite a long time . . .

I've actually been through this "driving beyond the limit" issue (on at least two other forums), including an episode with one individual who absolutely should have known what to expect (think summer performance tires right after the weather suddenly turned cooler, and a driver with accident investigation as a resume bullet point). They trusted the TC and stability control nannies implicitly, drove exactly as if they were 100% infallible, and discovered (a bit too late) that even the nannies have clear limits as to what they can do to save a situation. Fortunately, no injuries or sheetmetal damage that I know of, but you can bet good $ that their beliefs just took a big hit.


Why do you need ABS? Because clearly you never need to avoid things under heavy braking? Try that in panic mode you WILL lock those fuckers up.
This has nothing to do with OP's TC question either. But in 53 or so years of my own driving (and 46 years of my wife's) neither of us has ever had to swerve to avoid something while under extreme braking. We've learned to give ourselves enough room for the conditions of the moment to either brake, or make a lane-change maneuver, or brake then ease up and steer. I'm entirely comfortable braking at more than 0.9g from speeds above 110 mph. From half that speed, an 0.75g stop doesn't even rate a good yawn. Can't say as I've ever actually panicked . . .


Norm
 
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GuardGT

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FWIW, i daily drive mine with the fuse pulled. hot, cold, rain, whatever. i HATE nannies in all aspects and because they are always off i have gotten to know exactly how my car works without them, in all conditions. i have them permanently turned off on my 04 cobra(800+rwhp), and my 67 clearly has nothing, and both are single digit street driven cars. HOWEVER, i do pop the fuse back in if my wife takes the car to work, because she is not a very experienced driver. im not recommending that you pull the fuse, but im just stating that the car is perfectly fine without it, and there are many things to be gained from learning the car without the TC/ESP/ABS
 

jasonstang

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Which has nothing to do with learning how to drive for the conditions of the moment on the street. Or whether TC is a PITA.
In my experience you're more likely to come across dirt, tire "marbles", oil, coolant, etc. on a race track.
You're still missing my point.
I think you are missing my point. Race track is not the same as public road. You can spin out on a track no big problem. Plenty of run off areas to slow down. If you spin out on public street, I hope there is not a tree there. You may remember where the water, oil spill, or sand is on a track because it's not long, but you will never know what's around the corner.

Having them on can and will (for most people driving a car with considerable performance) let them learn to use too much throttle or get into it too quickly. Those people will never learn that it is possible to alter their car's heading in a 60 mph corner ever so slightly by either adding or subtracting tiny amounts of throttle, or that there is real benefit in being able to drive that smoothly. I've been working on this for quite a long time . . .
Again, still missing my point. Public road conditions are never the same. It always good to have it on and allowing it to work instead of getting into an accident with it off. You will have an accident, it's just a matter of when.



This has nothing to do with OP's TC question either. But in 53 or so years of my own driving (and 46 years of my wife's) neither of us has ever had to swerve to avoid something while under extreme braking. We've learned to give ourselves enough room for the conditions of the moment to either brake, or make a lane-change maneuver, or brake then ease up and steer. I'm entirely comfortable braking at more than 0.9g from speeds above 110 mph. From half that speed, an 0.75g stop doesn't even rate a good yawn. Can't say as I've ever actually panicked . . .
Again, OP was talking about driving aggressively on public street. It's meaningless to compare to racing on a track. On a blind corner there could be an animal, a broken down car, anything that you don't expect to see.
 

airfuel

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This is spinning out of control. (Bad pun intended)

If the op hasn't, he might benefit from an advanced driving school to learn a few things.
As a matter of fact, the majority here could also benefit.

Your car, closed track, instructor in passenger seat equals valuable lessons and fun!

Loved the track footage of the Thunderbolt track at NJMSP. I have lapped that track many times on a Ducati.
 

Norm Peterson

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I think you are missing my point. Race track is not the same as public road. You can spin out on a track no big problem. Plenty of run off areas to slow down. If you spin out on public street, I hope there is not a tree there. You may remember where the water, oil spill, or sand is on a track because it's not long, but you will never know what's around the corner.
You must be assuming that I typically drive at 9/10ths on the street. I don't. Offhand, I'd guess it peaks closer to 4/10ths, and generally below that which leaves plenty of margin for suddenly encountering most any conditions. The exceptions are controlled with respect to conditions, no other traffic, etc.


Again, still missing my point. Public road conditions are never the same. It always good to have it on and allowing it to work instead of getting into an accident with it off. You will have an accident, it's just a matter of when.
Is it possible? Sure. But with 50+ years and maybe half a million miles under my belt I've apparently been able to do quite well all by myself (I do drive more conservatively in some respects these days than I perhaps used to). I've spun exactly once on the track (driver error), and got about 45° to the road once (about 40 years ago, loose gravel). And one incident in a snowstorm in heavy highway traffic where no good choice existed, only various poor options (46 years ago). That's it, and no guarantees that AdvanceTrak would have been able to do any better (you'd had to have been there).

Is it so difficult to understand that being able to drive smoothly - particularly during "enthusiastic driving moments" - that you will be LESS likely to invoke the nannies? Can you not see this as being a really good thing . . . and that there are many people who simply slam their control inputs up against the nannies' thresholds because they really and truly don't know any better? Do you think that's going to get any better as time goes by? I sure don't.


Again, OP was talking about driving aggressively on public street. It's meaningless to compare to racing on a track. On a blind corner there could be an animal, a broken down car, anything that you don't expect to see.
OP was only talking about TC, not about any of the other systems that have since crept into this thread. There isn't enough room in a post to condense whatever wisdom I've managed to accumulate down to fit, let alone in a manner that people with far less experience would grasp on a gut-level.

That said, if you can drive smoothly and confidently on the track - occasional situations and all, car control in street driving situations becomes something you do correctly with little or no thought. And like I mentioned above, 4/10ths and under driving gives you a lot of wiggle room when you know you can handle situations at 9/10ths.


Norm
 

Coolmanfoo

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Yall ready for a noob question? Good!

How do you know if the Nannies are interfering? Does it flash or beep? I've gotten my car side ways in the rain (on purpose, love me an empty parking lot on a rainy day) and I've never had anything flash or beep or felt like the car had a mind of its own?

Is it a silent system? Now I'm really curious
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