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Pain in the rear traction control

SiMuL

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Norm, I just gotta say that I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful posts. I also completely agree. Learning to properly drive a car that is not helping you will make you a much better driver and will help you recover in those "oh sh!t" moments on or off the track.

And all too often, many of us buy performance vehicles with little to no experience of how to actually handle them in any given situation. Then we learn how we can drive the vehicle with the "nannies" on, which gives us a false sense of confidence. I believe this is the more likely scenario where something bad will eventually happen.

Both sides of the equation have their rightful place, though. Some people just can't drive good, no matter what training they've had.
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Norm Peterson

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Yall ready for a noob question? Good!

How do you know if the Nannies are interfering? Does it flash or beep? I've gotten my car side ways in the rain (on purpose, love me an empty parking lot on a rainy day) and I've never had anything flash or beep or felt like the car had a mind of its own?

Is it a silent system? Now I'm really curious
The little stability control icon should flash if you've left the AdvanceTrak 'on'. But you might be a little too busy right at the time it flashes to notice it. If you've turned the AdvanceTrak off to intentionally do that sort of hooning without having AdvanceTrak step in and spoil the fun, the icon will remain steadily lit.

It's in the 2015 Owner Manual, and I assume that it's the same for 2016.


TC in my '08 is that way as well. Flashing for TC busy vs constantly on when TC is turned off (its light is actually in the button itself rather than separately on the instrument panel).


Norm
 

West TX GT

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There are always battles like this on motorcycle forums where a particular brand added nannies to a new model year. As with bikes I believe cars should at least have a completely nanny free mode in order to learn how to be a better driver/rider. I would personally prefer it to remember my choice but the lawyers will never allow it. It is a product of the sue happy, blame someone else age we live in. On a bike you are more likely to just kill yourself, in a car others are more at risk so it is not as easy for me to say it should be any different than what it is. On the flip side how many accidents could be avoided if the driver actually gained any skill over their driving life. I'm pretty sure most accidents are due to distraction that may not have been there if people were forced to actually pay attention to what they were doing instead of moving along so briskly with ease. I have often feared for the life of my switch because I always switch it to sport+ to get more throttle response. I will probably end up buying that throttle thingy for that very reason.
 

jasonstang

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There are always battles like this on motorcycle forums where a particular brand added nannies to a new model year. As with bikes I believe cars should at least have a completely nanny free mode in order to learn how to be a better driver/rider. I would personally prefer it to remember my choice but the lawyers will never allow it. It is a product of the sue happy, blame someone else age we live in. On a bike you are more likely to just kill yourself, in a car others are more at risk so it is not as easy for me to say it should be any different than what it is. On the flip side how many accidents could be avoided if the driver actually gained any skill over their driving life. I'm pretty sure most accidents are due to distraction that may not have been there if people were forced to actually pay attention to what they were doing instead of moving along so briskly with ease. I have often feared for the life of my switch because I always switch it to sport+ to get more throttle response. I will probably end up buying that throttle thingy for that very reason.
I ride a bike with abs and traction control. More than many times the system has saved me from going down. There are just times you just can't see things on the road. It has nothing to do with skill. I don't need any of these when I do track days because I know what's coming up. Electronics has nothing to do with driving skills. Just because you are a good driver doesn't mean electronics can't help you.
 

jasonstang

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You must be assuming that I typically drive at 9/10ths on the street. I don't. Offhand, I'd guess it peaks closer to 4/10ths, and generally below that which leaves plenty of margin for suddenly encountering most any conditions. The exceptions are controlled with respect to conditions, no other traffic, etc.
If you are only using 4/10 of the vehicle performance, there is really no difference with the nannies on and off. The system simply won't engage so really it doesn't matter. But you can be driving at 2/10 of the car and still face a situation where you are glad that the system saved you. That's like saying electronics are useless on a small powerless car. Not the case. I really don't see how these two are related at all.

Is it possible? Sure. But with 50+ years and maybe half a million miles under my belt I've apparently been able to do quite well all by myself (I do drive more conservatively in some respects these days than I perhaps used to). I've spun exactly once on the track (driver error), and got about 45° to the road once (about 40 years ago, loose gravel). And one incident in a snowstorm in heavy highway traffic where no good choice existed, only various poor options (46 years ago). That's it, and no guarantees that AdvanceTrak would have been able to do any better (you'd had to have been there).
You will be amazed how much advancetrac can do in these situations. Either driver error or unpredictable road conditions.
Is it so difficult to understand that being able to drive smoothly - particularly during "enthusiastic driving moments" - that you will be LESS likely to invoke the nannies? Can you not see this as being a really good thing . . . and that there are many people who simply slam their control inputs up against the nannies' thresholds because they really and truly don't know any better? Do you think that's going to get any better as time goes by? I sure don't.
Of course there will always idiots who will drive beyond the capability of the vehicle. But with the nannies, do you prefer it on with such idiot driving and you are coming the other way? Would you prefer having it default on for everyone so when they are being idiots, the systems stops them so you don't get killed when the car would have been out of control if the system is turned off by default? I really don't see how OP can claim its PITA because the system is default on.
 

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I'm starting to think that Jason invented AdvanceTrac and he's here defending it's honor.

:D
 

West TX GT

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I'm not saying they don't help people out. I'm glad they do. I'm sure they have saved lives. Riders that cut there teeth without them almost always have better throttle control than those that didn't. The first thing I was taught was how not to just "mash" the brakes, more pressure in the front and not enough to lock the rear and so on and so on. Many skills should be built gradually. Physics will eventually win. Electronics can only do so much, that highside will occur eventually when they get stupid with the throttle mid turn but it will be at a higher speed. I just don't believe in yank the throttle and let the computer sort out the rear, take the time to learn and improve and be a better rider. People want to buy the most powerful bike they can afford and expect electronics to save them in a pinch instead of working there way up having a healthy respect for the power in the bike. On public roads a bikers biggest safety feature is their brain and judgment. I didn't mean to derail this into a two wheel discussion.
 

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I'm starting to think that Jason invented AdvanceTrac and he's here defending it's honor.

:D
I am not defending it. I turn mine off if I want to have some fun to. But simply relating having it on meaning you are a bad driver is just ignorance. I hate when my dad who's been driving for more than 20 years say he doesn't need seatbelt because he is a good driver. Uh no..
 

SteveW

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I think you guys are looking at stability control systems like AdvanceTrac wrong. These cars have more than enough performance to blow away local traffic without getting into the slip angle range AdvanceTrac intervenes but that's not really the point of it and where I feel you guys are missing the true benefits stability control systems.

We as drivers cannot brake individual wheels to straighten out a car AND stay in our lane to gather up an out of shape car. Systems like this do that and it works really well, especially with a competent driver.

Notice I didn't say "out of control car". None of us on this forum ever, ever gets out of control, right? :cheers:

I'm not advocating leaving it on at the racetrack or autocross course, just out in public and the weather.
 

Randy954

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Yea it sucks when you get the urge to shut down an intersection and do 5 or 6 donuts and peel off sideways down the block but then you remember you have to wait about 5-10 seconds to turn everything off. Takes the fun out of it. I live in the hood so i get requests from everyone on street DAILY to "burn out" or "whip that shit" or "lets see what it do". Then i got say hold on...let me first turn off all the traction aids. Its lame. And by that time i start to think how dumb and immature this is and i usually just keep driving with a disappointed and defeated feeling. We shouldnt have to think, we should be able to be impulsive if we want!
 
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. We shouldnt have to think, we should be able to be impulsive if we want!
They want to see you do stupid things. Don't be that guy who crashes exiting the car show. Gives mustang drivers a bad rep.
 

SR56

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Yea it sucks when you get the urge to shut down an intersection and do 5 or 6 donuts and peel off sideways down the block but then you remember you have to wait about 5-10 seconds to turn everything off. Takes the fun out of it. I live in the hood so i get requests from everyone on street DAILY to "burn out" or "whip that shit" or "lets see what it do". Then i got say hold on...let me first turn off all the traction aids. Its lame. And by that time i start to think how dumb and immature this is and i usually just keep driving with a disappointing and defeated feeling. We shouldnt have to think, we should be able to be impulsive if we want!
Reminds me of the time I worked as a lot attendant for a car dealer as a teenager. I was in a brand new GMC pickup with a strong V8 and this younger salesman was kidding around and gave me the "light up the tires" hand gesture. I mean, I was 17. Who was I to deny the man of a righteous 25 foot smoke the tires off burnout out in front where all the customers were?

Yeah, of course I did. It was actually kind of funny to see the General Manager running after me to the back of the lot in his cheap loafers and crappy suit as I ducked into the car wash. I'm not sure the extra 5 minutes helped his anger level. As I exited the wash, he promptly told me to get out of the truck and what the F was I thinking. I just laughed and said, dude, I only make 7 bucks an hour. He didn't think it was funny. I got perp walked out.

If only I had traction control in 1989. I might have made head lot attendant.
 

Norm Peterson

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But simply relating having it on meaning you are a bad driver is just ignorance.
Not what I've been saying.

What I am suggesting is that even if you are pretty good, with the nannies always having your back you won't ever get really good with your pedal and steering inputs. What you'll tend to learn is that you can add the same 1/4" or even 1/2" of throttle movement under (almost) any condition, when you should be adding at the sixteenth level. Same kind of thing with steering, just with different numbers.

Not invoking AdvanceTrak is always a good thing, whether it's because your driving is so far below its threshold that it can't get interested or because you're so consistently smooth up near that threshold that it still stays out of the picture.

I know for a fact that some track day instructors use the frequency of their students' causing some nanny to step in as guidance for either recommending them for advancement to 'solo' status (very few or no nanny occurrences) or holding them back for further guided instruction (more such occurrences). I'm posting this only as an indication of 'consistent smoothness' being developed, that if it's good enough guidance toward being allowed to run solo at speed on a track with other cars it's good enough evidence that smoothness is a skill worth developing for street driving.


FWIW . . .
AdvanceTrak can't fix a black ice situation (#1) because there isn't enough grip available for it to work with either and you're still just along for the ride wherever it takes you. It's highly unlikely that it could have the fixed left-side tires in a 12" snowbank/right side tires in 2" of slush situation (#3). Might have fixed #2 enough to understeer me off the road instead of quarter-spinning and staying on it (otherwise empty country road, I wouldn't have been driving quite that hard had there been any oncoming traffic).


Norm
 
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Norm Peterson

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I think you guys are looking at stability control systems like AdvanceTrac wrong. These cars have more than enough performance to blow away local traffic without getting into the slip angle range AdvanceTrac intervenes but that's not really the point of it and where I feel you guys are missing the true benefits stability control systems.

We as drivers cannot brake individual wheels to straighten out a car AND stay in our lane to gather up an out of shape car. Systems like this do that and it works really well, especially with a competent driver..
Vehicle dynamics has been a semi-serious side interest of mine for a long time, and I understand the basic functioning of these systems at least generally. The wheel or wheels being braked still need to have the requisite amount of grip, TC and stability control systems cannot magically create more grip out of thin air and wishful thinking.

Yes, I understand that they can make better use of the existing grip . . . and that they still have their limits as well. More than a few early owners of cars with the G:2 Goodyear Supercar tires found out the hard way than "Stabilitrak" could not cope with the significantly reduced grip of those tires in the cold. TC in my own car can be so easily overpowered in the wet or in a couple inches of snow that it might as well have not been fitted at all (it goes to wheelspin just as fast whether TC is on or off, and the TC never does catch up and take over). I've tested this on several different occasions, and no, I have no plans to have it "fixed".

The problem - before "drive modes" anyway - is that calibration suitable for summer use might well be inappropriate when the levels of tire grip are very low for any reason (cold, snow, etc.). And that conversely, calibration for cold weather or snow/ice/slush would be apt to intervene in driving only slightly more enthusiastic than 'mild-to-moderate'. You wouldn't want a Mustang that occasionally shut off the fun (?) during a zero to 60 run projected at 7 seconds, would you?


Norm
 
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7six2

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I drive "normal" most of the time but there are those times that you just randomly want to break the tires loose and it takes the fun out of it when you have to stop and think about what stinkin switch needs to be pushed...and held down. I know its just a small thing but for me its just one more thing that's taking the joy out of owning a car like this. My GTO had almost 500 horsepower and could smoke the tires on demand...even rolling 50mph...and I daily drove it, rain or shine, with no problems.
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