Norm Peterson

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I have been saying that for a while now. Finally people get it.

This is not an automatic transmission. An automatic trans has a torque converter, the DCT has two manual clutches that are electronically controlled.
Here we go again . . . having a torque converter does not define a transmission's ability to do its own shifting independent of active driver input.

IOW, the shifts can still be automated (that "automatic" thing) in a DCT.

I'm not saying that somehow makes a DCT a full-on slushbox or even a 10R80-level of conventional TC-automatic, only that because it does include automation and can be driven in a fully automatic shifting mode it's still an automated transmission.


Norm
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Snakecollector

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Yes, and I'd bet the reasoning behind that decision was to help alleviate the stigma associated with automatics being "not for real drivers". Key word is still "automated".

There are also single-clutch automated manuals, only furthering muddying the waters. One example of this would be the Pagani Huayra. They didn't go the dual-clutch route because of weight savings. The actual operation of the clutch is still handled by a computer.

Blurring the lines further, are sequential manuals (which don't use the clutch after 1st-gear). Not likely to see those outside of race applications though, so kind of a moot point.

Oh shit, I just realized something. People like to say that "gender is a spectrum", or some other such nonsense. They're wrong. It's actually transmissions that have a spectrum :cwl:
Yeah... It becomes a tricky subject from a manufacturer advertisement standpoint also because the moment you mention 'automatic' to most car enthusiasts they think back to prior experiences with the slow, lazy TC autos we've all driven. How do you make potential buyers aware of the difference? They have to very clearly differentiate it somehow (hence: automated manual, etc).

I freely admit: I was a diehard manual transmission fan (and I still love them) and was more than on the fence about the DCT in the GT500. I've yet to drive a TC auto that I've liked one bit. But the Tremec in this car... It is so... effin.. good. Driving the car for the first time it literally only took 5 minutes to understand why they went with it. The car just simply would not perform as well with a manual transmission.
 

Norm Peterson

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From the article below:

“First and foremost, mechanically, this is a manual transmission. There is no torque converter, nor does the trans have bands or planetary gears. It has a clutch, and internally the box looks similar to any synchronized manual trans you've seen.”

“In fact, those who are uneducated are even calling it an automatic.”
Mechanically operated but computer-automated in part all of the time (clutch engagement/disengagement). Automated in full in any mode that features shifting not directed by the driver.

Transmission gear selection first needs some sort of active determination as to what gear to select. That makes the logic behind gear selection the top-level definition of automation, either completely by the human driver (manual) or by various forms of hydraulic and/or electronic logic in any automated mode (automatic). Detail levels of mechanical operation can't change that.


Norm
 
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Norm Peterson

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Hey, @Norm Peterson

A DCT apparently is not an automatic.

Care to weigh in on this?

You'd be totally fine driving one, right?
I've said before that I'd drive a DCT-equipped car if I was reaching for a podium position in a race series that permitted DCTs if that's what it was going to take.

On the street, I'm a whole lot less sure. On pulling away from a full stop it's still going to drive away more like any other two-pedal car than a 3-pedal manual, and I know for sure that I'd always notice that. I don't think Tim has any idea just how noticeable that small difference is for me.


Norm
 

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Until you experience it first hand, you assume it operates and feels like any automatic transmission. You go by what you know. This one is different. Give it a try and you will see.
I think I get what you're trying to say here. Sure, it ought to feel different from conventional TC-automatics.

But when it does my clutch work for me, or does any automated shifting whatsoever, it becomes an automated or fully automatic transmission. It can never be fully manually operated as long as you consider the clutch function to be an essential part of gear changing.

I know that a DCT works differently from conventional ATs mechanically (I've looked into how various transmission types work). But mechanical operating details are not the defining characteristic of automation. Just a different way for the automation to effect said gear changes.


Norm
 

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I've said before that I'd drive a DCT-equipped car if I was reaching for a podium position in a race series that permitted DCTs if that's what it was going to take.

On the street, I'm a whole lot less sure. On pulling away from a full stop it's still going to drive away more like any other two-pedal car than a 3-pedal manual, and I know for sure that I'd always notice that. I don't think Tim has any idea just how noticeable that small difference is for me.


Norm
We'll make an Auto Boy out of you yet :giggle:

Seriously though, I figured if anyone would get what I was saying, it would be you. Norm, stay Norm. You're a constant by which we can measure the automotive world.
 
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Goose17

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I freely admit: I was a diehard manual transmission fan (and I still love them) and was more than on the fence about the DCT in the GT500. I've yet to drive a TC auto that I've liked one bit. But the Tremec in this car... It is so... effin.. good. Driving the car for the first time it literally only took 5 minutes to understand why they went with it. The car just simply would not perform as well with a manual transmission.
You own one, you drive one, you NAILED it!

I have a garage full of manual Mustangs. I love them… I do enjoy rowing gears. The DCT equipped 2020+ GT500 changes a lot of minds when one gets behind the wheel. This car would have been ruined with a manual.

I have 8 manual transmission Mustangs and I bought two more for my sons. They are all great cars. The new GT500 nudged out my 2000 Cobra R as my favorite. The transmission has a lot to do with that #1 spot.

All I’m saying is for those that like to argue against it… give it a shot!
 

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Transmission for dummies:

Manual shifting: Step on clutch and Driver moves shifter to desired gear. When coming to a stop have to push clutch in to keep engine from stalling.

Anything else. IF at anytime something other than the driver (computer, etc) Can control the shifting then in someway it is considered automated....
 

Norm Peterson

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All I’m saying is for those that like to argue against it… give it a shot!
I'm sure I'd be impressed by a DCT's performance on track. Even if it came packaged in cars down in the 400-ish HP range. Just not enough to be able to live with one in street driving.


Norm
 

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Yep, here we go again, its the crowd from the "manual or bust" thread.

Sure, lets all argue about it again, lol
 

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Driving the car for the first time it literally only took 5 minutes to understand why they went with it. The car just simply would not perform as well with a manual transmission.
Well said.
Yep, here we go again, its the crowd from the "manual or bust" thread.
I get the same vibe. Sigh...
 
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Goose17

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Transmission for dummies:

Manual shifting: Step on clutch and Driver moves shifter to desired gear. When coming to a stop have to push clutch in to keep engine from stalling.

Anything else. IF at anytime something other than the driver (computer, etc) Can control the shifting then in someway it is considered automated....
I guess I am the “dummy” since you are explaining this to me. By the way, I felt compelled to fix all the spelling, punctuation and grammar errors in your dummy-argument.

BF29D5EC-DE2E-498F-8EDB-BF4A0472C7D0.jpeg
 

Mikthehun1

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I guess I am the “dummy” since you are explaining this to me. By the way, I felt compelled to fix all the spelling, punctuation and grammar errors in your dummy-argument.

BF29D5EC-DE2E-498F-8EDB-BF4A0472C7D0.jpeg
grammarpo_thumb_2.png


Edited, but not for any of you degenerates :crackup:
 
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LxMike

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I guess I am the “dummy” since you are explaining this to me. By the way, I felt compelled to fix all the spelling, punctuation and grammar errors in your dummy-argument.
Touché
 
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