No More Camaros After 2023!!! Will Mustangs Follow???

[Joe B.]

Well, the Mustang has a symbiotic relationship of sorts with the other Pony cars, so hopefully that demand won't "evaporate" like the Camaro. Lot less gear heads out there nowadays, but I still get the occasional grade school kid jumping up and down and pointing at my 'stang, so there is hope.

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[Biggus Dickus]

They already have it.. it's call the Mustang Mach E.

All the soy latte bois love it.

...and wives of Mustang GT owners (and their husbands)

 

[LSchicago]

None of this means anything in light of the new EPA MPG mandates.

All bets are off. Ford could go out of business tomorrow at this point.

That's not going to happen. MPG requirements will be met by adding EV's. No need to panic.

 

[LSchicago]

Ford is expecting the Windsor plant to keep producing engines until 2040, when they promised a shift to all EV's. https://www.autoblog.com/2022/04/25/ford-windsor-engine-plant-ice-2040/

 

[XFactor7889]

It comes down to market demand (volume) and profit margins. IMHO, Ford already telegraphed their long range intentions when they slapped the Mustang name on the Mach-e. That is where they see the market going.

I do agree with you. But, I think there's room for both the Mach-E and the ICE Mustang to exist together, which I think is Ford's plan. And keep this in mind too, if there are electric Mustangs selling well, regardless of them sharing a platform with ICE Mustangs, that only helps the ICE Mustangs live on longer from an EPA perspective. Because at that point, Ford can point to the EV Mustangs and their "0 emissions" to drive up the average "mpg" of the Mustang lineup. In my eyes, that's a win-win. And to piggyback on your point about demand and profit margins, that just means it's up to consumers to keep the ICE Mustangs alive. If the market is there, Ford will continue to supply it. And if it dries up, well they've already created a hedge with the Mach-E.

Another thing to consider, and I know it's an unpopular point/opinion to make here, the Mach-E isn't being treated as just a boring electric SUV. Ford has demonstrated its willingness to make performance versions of it already, not only with the GT Performance, but also with the 1400 it made with RTR. There was even a Shelby prototype at SEMA last year. All signs that the spirit of the Mustang will carry forward even if the days of ICE do come to an end eventually. But I do recognize that may not be seen as a point that would necessarily be supporting my stance to some.

 

[Boosted Pony]

Electric vehicles are going to bite this country in the rear end for several reasons.

1. Range is just not good enough, the trucks are going to be the ones that really highlight that when they start getting worked and people find the electric motors use more and more power the harder you work them. Currently towing tests have been a disaster for electric vehicles dropping their range to barely over 100 miles.

2. The amount of time it takes to charge the batteries, I see Tesla owners all the time reading books waiting for their cars to recharge because it takes so long.

3. It is just not feasible to have all those expensive charging stations, what are people at apartments supposed to do? Do you really think apartment complexes are going to spend millions of dollars just to install electric charging stations for every renter?

4. Currently there are not that many electric vehicles on the road and of those 1 out of every 5 return to gas/diesel powered vehicles. It is currently a limited market and you can't force a product on the public.

5. Cost of the electric vehicles average $50,000 dollars and this is one tax payer who is not happy handing out tax credits to people who can afford to buy $50,000 dollar plus electric vehicles.

6. Cost of replacing batteries is far to expensive making electric cars throw away vehicles, who in their right mind is going to buy an electric vehicle with 100,000 or more miles on it then have to spend $15,000 plus dollars for a new battery, they still have a vehicle with 100,000 plus miles on it so there are a lot of things that are getting worn out besides the battery.

 

[Boosted Pony]

I do agree with you. But, I think there's room for both the Mach-E and the ICE Mustang to exist together, which I think is Ford's plan. And keep this in mind too, if there are electric Mustangs selling well, regardless of them sharing a platform with ICE Mustangs, that only helps the ICE Mustangs live on longer from an EPA perspective. Because at that point, Ford can point to the EV Mustangs and their "0 emissions" to drive up the average "mpg" of the Mustang lineup. In my eyes, that's a win-win. And to piggyback on your point about demand and profit margins, that just means it's up to consumers to keep the ICE Mustangs alive. If the market is there, Ford will continue to supply it. And if it dries up, well they've already created a hedge with the Mach-E.

Another thing to consider, and I know it's an unpopular point/opinion to make here, the Mach-E isn't being treated as just a boring electric SUV. Ford has demonstrated its willingness to make performance versions of it already, not only with the GT Performance, but also with the 1400 it made with RTR. There was even a Shelby prototype at SEMA last year. All signs that the spirit of the Mustang will carry forward even if the days of ICE do come to an end eventually. But I do recognize that may not be seen as a point that would necessarily be supporting my stance to some.

The Mach E is an SUV no matter how Ford tries to position it, they made a huge blunder when they called it a Mustang. When others with ICE Mustangs are out having a good time together are they going to want to have to wait around for an hour while someone with a Mach E is recharging? Ford needs to drop the Mustang name from the Mach E.

 

[Specracer]

If the Camaro wasn't UGLY, and sold well, it would not be discontinued.

 

[XFactor7889]

The Mach E is an SUV no matter how Ford tries to position it, they made a huge blunder when they called it a Mustang. When others with ICE Mustangs are out having a good time together are they going to want to have to wait around for an hour while someone with a Mach E is recharging? Ford needs to drop the Mustang name from the Mach E.

Given Ford has stopped taking orders for 2022 (in Q1 btw) because they've already received enough to meet production capacity, it doesn't seem like a blunder at all. In fact, we could argue the only blunder is not having a larger capacity in order to meet demand. Don't mistake the disdain that many on this forum have for the Mach-E being called a Mustang as the general consensus among Ford's target market. Mustang is an iconic brand on its own. Calling the Mach-E a Mustang was a brilliant marketing decision to get more people who could never justify the 2-door coupe into a Mustang. You don't have to like it; and if you don't, know that you're not in the target market for the Mach-E. And that's okay. There's very little reason to be upset with Ford for that.

And keep this in mind too. Ford originally planned to call it the Mach 1. When the purist Mustang fans learned this, they were outraged, right? So what did Ford do? They shifted gears, gave it a new name, and then gave the fans a Mach 1 they'd be excited for. If that isn't indicative of Ford being conscious of its consumers, then I don't know what is. That alone should be the proof anyone needs that the ICE Mustang isn't going anywhere anytime soon; and that Ford does indeed care about this market, even if it is shrinking.

 

[BabyDoc1012]

The Camaro and Challenger are dying because GM and Chrysler have not really updated them since the resurrection of the name plates. They have received refreshes, but nothin crazy.

 

[Coastal-Mach]

For those of us who remember, this is not the first time we thought the Mustang would be eliminated.

In 1987 Ford tried to replace the Mustang with the Probe, thankfully someone leaked the information and it went public.

I was in high school, and it was one of my first important letters, I had ever written about something I was passionate about. Being a new driver of a 68 coupe, Mustang was all I talked and read about.

If we, as enthusiasts still have the passion and loud communitive voice, Ford should listen again, if this ever comes to fruition.

Im not saying, it will still be a high HP V8, but hopefully a V8 of some sort. Unfortunately for us gear heads, we are witnessing the end of a great era in motorsports.

The above, are just my thoughts and Im still as passionate about this car as I was at 14.

 

[ay1820]

Electric vehicles are going to bite this country in the rear end for several reasons.

1. Range is just not good enough, the trucks are going to be the ones that really highlight that when they start getting worked and people find the electric motors use more and more power the harder you work them. Currently towing tests have been a disaster for electric vehicles dropping their range to barely over 100 miles.

2. The amount of time it takes to charge the batteries, I see Tesla owners all the time reading books waiting for their cars to recharge because it takes so long.

3. It is just not feasible to have all those expensive charging stations, what are people at apartments supposed to do? Do you really think apartment complexes are going to spend millions of dollars just to install electric charging stations for every renter?

4. Currently there are not that many electric vehicles on the road and of those 1 out of every 5 return to gas/diesel powered vehicles. It is currently a limited market and you can't force a product on the public.

5. Cost of the electric vehicles average $50,000 dollars and this is one tax payer who is not happy handing out tax credits to people who can afford to buy $50,000 dollar plus electric vehicles.

6. Cost of replacing batteries is far to expensive making electric cars throw away vehicles, who in their right mind is going to buy an electric vehicle with 100,000 or more miles on it then have to spend $15,000 plus dollars for a new battery, they still have a vehicle with 100,000 plus miles on it so there are a lot of things that are getting worn out besides the battery.

I agree with everything that you are saying. And you forgot my favorite pet peeve in this debate; most of the worlds electricity is still generated by burning fossil fuels, so EVs are not really zero emission, the emissions just take place somewhere else.

But I also believe that each and every one of these problems will eventually be overcome. Rewind about 120 years and similar arguments were being made about "horseless carriages". It took a couple of decades to sort out, but we all know where that landed.

I see the same happening here. EVs today are at about the same point in the tech evolutionary cycle as the first Motorola "Brick" cell phone (impractical, limited use, and super expensive, but with tremendous potential).

Ford has already developed a charging cable that can support 5 minute recharge cycles, and new technologies, like solid state batteries, are also beginning to show real promise. And prices will come down as more and more of the problems are solved and scale goes up (remember back in the late '90s when a flat screen TV cost upwards of $10k? ).

To be clear, I am no tree hugging "save the planet" type (just look in my garage). But I see EVs as the future because they offer real advantages. Yes, they will be better for the environment (which really is not a bad thing), they have fewer moving parts so they will ultimately be cheaper, more reliable and easier to maintain, they offer tremendous low end torque which will make them the preferred option for heavy equipment, and they will also allow for much more flexible and innovative designs and manufacturing techniques. And there is no reason that they cannot be fun and performance oriented too ... if that's what the market wants that what will get built.

 

[DarthMalice]

I think the mustang will stay around a while. It will be the only muscle car left after Camaro goes away in 23, and Challenger leaves in 24. Plus Ford just spent a bunch of money on the S650, so they will recoup that. If they may an S650 GT350 or GT500, I will probably buy one as they will be probably be one of the last.

Spent a bunch of money? Looks like to me it is already on cruise control because the competitors are dropping out. Sounds like the engines are coming over unchanged; probably won't have any transmission adjustments...maybe the Tremec becomes the stock GT one but even that is unlikely. DCT might show up in a Boss variant I guess if we are really lucky. Rumors abound of hybrid powertrains but there is scant evidence of it. This is more and more looking like a cosmetic overhaul (and not a good one IMHO from the leaked pics of both interior and exterior). I truly believe Ford is going into "wait and see" on mustang-it will limp along as "the worlds best selling sports car" in current form until that niche market dies and the coupe most likely with it.

 

[KingKona]

The Camaro and Challenger are dying because GM and Chrysler have not really updated them since the resurrection of the name plates. They have received refreshes, but nothin crazy.

The Camaro got a 100% new chassis/structure. It's called the Alpha platform.

So....yes, it got a massive update since the name was resurrected.

 

[KingKona]

For those of us who remember, this is not the first time we thought the Mustang would be eliminated.

In 1987 Ford tried to replace the Mustang with the Probe, thankfully someone leaked the information and it went public.

The difference is that the Mustang was to be eliminated due to internal Ford pressures, not external market and regulatory pressures. So Ford was free to do a 180 and keep going with it.

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