New brake design via Porsche

[460Fred]

Very interesting!



Porsche
Can’t believe I cannot edit the thread title ;-)

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[Tomster]

Weight is everything. What is the weight savings? Ford engineered the daylights out of the steel brakes that work well on the GT350. And replacement rotors? Cheap.

 

[460Fred]

Weight is everything. What is the weight savings? Ford engineered the daylights out of the steel brakes that work well on the GT350. And replacement rotors? Cheap.

Good question!
I couldn’t help but to think of the carbon ceramic group buy.

 

[Tomster]

Let's face it, Ford built a very respectable track car at a low price point. Throw OEM carbon brakes in and every other bell and whistle, you would be looking at the price point of a Porsche. Its almost funny how many P car owners have expressed interest in the GT350R. The next chapter is the GT500CFTP.

I would be really excited to see a lightweight brake solution offered that is reliable to the point you would bet your life in it. However I don't think that will be anytime soon because nobody wants to spend the money to certify reliability in a low cost carbon brake system.

I dont see the tungsten rotor technology reducing any weight. The steel brake system in the 350/500 is proven.

 

[FatThigh]

Let's face it, Ford built a very respectable track car at a low price point. Throw OEM carbon brakes in and every other bell and whistle, you would be looking at the price point of a Porsche. Its almost funny how many P car owners have expressed interest in the GT350R. The next chapter is the GT500CFTP.

I would be really excited to see a lightweight brake solution offered that is reliable to the point you would bet your life in it. However I don't think that will be anytime soon because nobody wants to spend the money to certify reliability in a low cost carbon brake system.

I dont see the tungsten rotor technology reducing any weight. The steel brake system in the 350/500 is proven.

I'll admit.. I am a big Porsche guy - my GT350 HEP sits in the garage next to my GT3 Touring - and yes the GT350 has a feel all its own, and is very unlike a traditional Mustang per se. The brakes on the GT350 have no problem stopping the car, and were engineered as a perfect fit for the car.

The PCCBs are a different animal altogether, and the new Porsche Surface Coated Brakes (PSCB) in the video are not made witht he lightest weight in mind... they are more for low dust, long life than the PCCB brakes which are engineered for ultimate in light weight, and max stopping power with minimal fade.

 

[Shift]

Very, very cool.

$11k+ replacement costs F&R, not so cool.

 

[oldbmwfan]

Very, very cool.

$11k+ replacement costs F&R, not so cool.

Agree. These seem like a brilliant idea for a street-driven car, where the lack of rotor rust and pitting may mean you can realistically get 100K (highway) miles from a set of rotors. Seems like a really dumb idea for a tracked vehicle, where 130% of the life of iron rotors for 550% of the cost is more than a little upside-down.

 

[460Fred]

Whenever I see new technology I get excited, even if baby steps.
Let’s face it, brake technology hasn’t really advanced much the last 20 years, unless I missed something.

 

[JAJ]

Agree. These seem like a brilliant idea for a street-driven car, where the lack of rotor rust and pitting may mean you can realistically get 100K (highway) miles from a set of rotors. Seems like a really dumb idea for a tracked vehicle, where 130% of the life of iron rotors for 550% of the cost is more than a little upside-down.

Yes, I was looking at the cost dynamics - I suppose it saves a little cash cleaning up the wheels, but it's not a performance upgrade. Those massive calipers are unusual though - there must be a serious heat problem with these new rotors. Heat must get trapped on the rotor's friction face (rather than soaking into the rotor body) under heavy braking. When heat can't soak into the rotor body, it heats up the pads and the calipers instead. It takes a massive caliper with big pads to keep the fluid from boiling and the pads from crumbling in an emergency stop from 150 mph.

As for the coating material itself, if any of you have been following the carbon ceramic group buy thread, I dug deep into the way carbon ceramic rotors are made. The surface coating on these new Porsche surface coated iron rotors is tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is the super hard coating used on "carbide" cutting tools like drill bits. Carbon ceramic rotors go one step further using silicon carbide, which is even harder, snuggled right up against diamond on the hardness scale. They too are famous for their lack of dust.

 

[shogun32]

Carbon ceramic rotors go one step further using silicon carbide, which is even harder, snuggled right up against diamond on the hardness scale. They too are famous for their lack of dust.

right but 'dust' is brake pad material being scraped off. It's not hardness of the rotors per se but their 'flatness' and grain integrity that is keeping dust down. I should think. I guess they're using vapor deposition?

 

[honeybadger]

I'd bet these rotors were designed for the crowd that wants something more durable than CC brakes, but not as rusty/dusty as standard rotors. And this crowd likely doesn't track their car, but daily and MAYBE do some canyon drives.

Seem like a super cool solution for the specific target audience

 

[JAJ]

right but 'dust' is brake pad material being scraped off. It's not hardness of the rotors per se but their 'flatness' and grain integrity that is keeping dust down. I should think. I guess they're using vapor deposition?

I'm pretty sure that if just polishing the surface of a regular iron disk would keep dust at bay, we'd be surrounded by detailing shops offering mirror finish polishing for our brake rotors.

I saw somewhere - maybe in the video - that they spray it on using a torch assembly, very similar to the spray on liners in the Ford engine blocks.

 

[MikeR397]

How much more stopping power can street tires take as well before locking up?

I am super happy with Raybestos st43 pads ($600 all around) and the stock rotors (now on new flat front rotors For $235 each), original drilled rears have 35 track days an still look/measure great). I liked the stock pads ok too, better for modulation and trail breaking, but they wore out 2x+ as fast as the Raybestos and I am over the constant brake jobs and worrying about running out on track and maximizing pad life.

edit: this is mostly just a track car though, the Raybestos do make more noise and sticky dust, but armor all wheel protect and spray for $8 works marvels at keeping clean wheels.

 

[JAJ]

I'd bet these rotors were designed for the crowd that wants something more durable than CC brakes, but not as rusty/dusty as standard rotors. And this crowd likely doesn't track their car, but daily and MAYBE do some canyon drives.

Seem like a super cool solution for the specific target audience

In the type of use these rotors are best at, carbon ceramic will last longer than these guys. I think it's a lower cost option with the low dust performance that people on three and four year leases are looking for.

You just don't want to be the guy who buys a lovely lease return Porsche only to get stuck with a $22k brake service six months later.

 

[MikeR397]

In the type of use these rotors are best at, carbon ceramic will last longer than these guys. I think it's a lower cost option with the low dust performance that people on three and four year leases are looking for.

You just don't want to be the guy who buys a lovely lease return Porsche only to get stuck with a $22k brake service six months later.

Isn’t there steel replacement options for Porsche as well for 1/4 that price? I know there are for Ferrari, and the few that track Ferrari’s don’t pay $25k for a brake job.

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