The PP1 is an insult to the word 'performance'. Ford sucks at (factory) suspension and the stupid-ass choice to make a "sports car" drive a quietly as a Camry was a huge disservice to the buying public IMO.
Like I said, you don't have to do a subframe lockout and I didn't notice a big difference. I did it because it was cheap and easy. I think most reviewers say that they pick the GT350 to buy even though they do say the ZL1 1LE is faster on track. Probably because they realize they aren't going to get money or prizes for a slightly faster lap time, but they have to live with a car both on and off track. So the reviewers select the car they PREFER to own. The GT350. And I've never, ever heard a big name reviewer say they would pick the SS 1LE over a GT350 for anything.
Umm, no. Not even close. The V6 1LE gets Goodyear Eagle F1 summer only tires according to Chevrolet. And yes when you have a lighter engine, the springs from a V8 car are stiff. Give me a break.
PP1 is not set up to be a track car. I agree. I own one and it's scary the lack of body control when you get on it too aggressively at speed. And the tires are junk in my opinion. I bought mine used but it had new tires on it. I told the dealer they should have spent for some decent tires rather than putting that crap on there. I swapped out the suspension and I'm going to be doing some work on improving the cooling before I go to the track with it.
Idk. I just read this and think you are delusional.
Speaking of delusions, you think a car with one of the best engines ever built is not as good as something with a bland engine that makes way less power. Wow.
IMO then you weren't paying attention. Or your lockout kit was not particularly effective. When I did mine I could tell quite clearly the backend of the car was now attached to the front.
? If you could read, ive said the coyote is probably the better engine multiple times. That does NOT mean the lt1 is a bad engine or that the lt1 hasnt beaten the coyote NA build wise. And way less power? Boosted yes, NA no. The lt1 wins NA. Reference back to what i said about the silver bullet by steeda.
of course. I did too. But it wouldn't have cost Ford a penny more to put the FRPP track shocks and spring set on the PP1 which is actually a worthwhile "performance" enhancement. It's not the least bit 'harsh' or unsuitable for DD. The stock non-PP car is just an embarrassing marshmallow fluff that IMO should never have been sold at all, but then again most Mustang buyers aren't the lest bit interested in useful performance it would appear...
Maybe on the GT the lockouts make more difference than they do on the GT350. I really didn't notice a big difference on the GT350. Maybe it was at a time when I had a longer break between track events and that's why I didn't notice. Not sure.
I was talking about the Voodoo, not the Coyote. But yes I do agree that the Ford engines are more sporty in nature.
I wish Ford would have made a less expensive track worthy Mustang as well. I think they built the car for the majority of buyers and most Mustang buyers aren't as into track performance as we are. I decided that for me this time around I prefer to buy a Mustang and modify it for track use rather than go with something else. I was definitely looking hard at Camaros but I thought the Mustang was a better choice for me.
Really good post.Justin Bieber sells way more albums than The Bravery. That doesn't mean he's a better or more talented musician (he's not even close).
As far as actual "proof" that the Alpha chassis is superior, most likely only the chassis engineers could show those hard values (chassis deflection values, suspension geometry values, etc.). I'm sure they are in the calculations and could be shown. But I have several thoughts on my own using anecdotal evidence:
Ever wondered why an SS 1LE, ZL1, or ZLE does not need a strut tower brace but all the Mustangs (including the GT350R) do? The answer is chassis stiffness.
The ZL1 is faster than a GT350R around a track on inferior tires without a big rear CF wing or CF wheels. The ZL1 wears very good Goodyear Supercars, but they are not Cup 2s like the GT350R or R compounds of the ZLE. Sure, the extra power definitely helps those times, but if you actually analyze the turning g's and braking g's turn by turn, the ZL1 is close on most and even outgrips the GT350R in some turns and brake zones. A heavier car with narrower, less sticky tires without a big wing and no CF wheels and no strut tower brace out gripping the GT350R? That's a lot of evidence of a superior chassis. Check out the track comparison pic at the end of this post, with Randy Pobst driving the ZL1 vs GT350R same day. Link to the article: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2017 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R: The Forever War (motortrend.com)
Nurburgring:
ZL1 'ring time: 7:29
GT350R ring time: 7:32 (same arguments above apply)
The ZL1 does all this without bouncing around on bumpy tracks or roads like an R. I realize the R is VERY good, no doubt, but so is the ZL1 - it is very composed and comfortable - and has all the bells and whistles.
I won't even go into the M6 ZLE's ring time of 7:16...oh wait I just did. The R and ZLE are not even close around a track, much less a base GT350. The R and ZLE are in different brackets. That's what the GT500 CFTP is for, to compete w/ the ZLE with 110 more hp and much more money. FWIW, Randy Pobst chose the ZLE over the GT500 CFTP in the Throttle House head to head - his opinion trumps most when it comes to handling.
Last year C&D performed a head to head of the PP2 vs SS 1LE - the SS won, and if you read that article, the Camaro was much better sorted. Even though they liked the PP2, the SS 1LE was better. Again, no strut tower brace on the Camaro. Complaints of uncompliant suspension and tramlining in the PP2. No tramlining in the SS 1LE though, no doubt in part aided by a better chassis and front suspension geometry. Here's a quote from the article: "The Ford lost this comparison test by only three points. That’s close. But that’s not how it felt to our two voters. There was never a circumstance when our drivers wouldn’t have preferred to drive the Camaro instead of the Mustang.... Its [The PP2's] terrain-tracking combined with an inability to deal with water-covered pavement made the car a nervous wreck through construction zones in the rain. The PPL2’s stiff suspenders also made it more susceptible to freeway hop than the Camaro."
On the Cup 2s, the PP2 gripped 1.13 g's, but the SS 1LE on the inferior Goodyear Supercars went 1.11 g's and they essentially tied in the slalom (45.3 vs 45.4 mph).
Also, the SS 1LE tested was 48 lbs lighter than the PP2 and that is with all the heat exchangers necessary for track, and 3 extra gallons of gas (19 lbs). If Ford were to add the coolers and 3 gal to the fuel tank, the PP2 would weigh 100 lbs more than the SS 1LE.
Other evidence: The Camaro has a better front:rear weight balance than the Mustang. In the above test the PP2 was 54.5/45.5 and the SS 1LE was 53.6/46.4 -- can't get much better than that without a transaxle. For what it's worth, the supercharged ZLE is 54/46 (rounded) while the GT500 CFTP is 56/44 (also rounded).
In Head to heads most people choose the Mustang, trim for time, because it IS more livable and iconic, and yeah, it looks better (trim for trim). Most people in the professional driving world choose the Camaro for its performance, trim for trim, over a Mustang. It's better sorted and everyone who drives them back to back can feel that. As a Mustang owner it always bugged me that they always said the Camaro felt so much better, because I always felt my GT PP1 A10 w/ MagneRide felt great.
Interior feel and styling is subjective, and I liked the ZL1's interior better than the '20 GT500's interior that I sat in previously. Though, to be frank, my GT Premium's interior feels nicer than the GT500 I sat in (seems backwards).
Great writing. Thanks for the input.
Could be a good question for GM on camaro6 gorums. They reply to users questions about the camaro, and have given tons of great info and tests about the 1le
Yeah, I know - it's a fun argument that will go on and on...my post was in response to the back and forth of Hack and Adam -- so they obviously care enough to discuss it here. If no one argued for one car or the other, then there would be no vs. section (or it would be extremely boring).lol, am I the only one that is laughing out here?!?
Quoting a Motor Trend article that try’s numerous times to explain away why the 350R is within sneezing distance of the ZL1 with 200 less torque and 120 less horsepower, and then using the same article to declare how superior the ZL1 chassis is...
...who gives a crap man, buy what ya like and drive it, this argument will go on until the end of time
