Mustang vs ZLE

shogun32

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and with a pretty basic suspension bits and be able to outpace a GT PP1
The PP1 is an insult to the word 'performance'. Ford sucks at (factory) suspension and the stupid-ass choice to make a "sports car" drive a quietly as a Camry was a huge disservice to the buying public IMO.





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Hack

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The fact you have to do something to it vs the 1le should explain everything.

Every review ive seen says camaro 100% on track. Hit or miss on which one for a DD. But thats more "visibility issues" rather than performance related. They also talk about how bland the gt350 interior looks vs its exterior.

The LT1 has been proven to be an amazing engine. Its an improvement and overhaul of the LS engine which is extremely popular. I probably prefer the coyote, but one being great doesn't mean the other isnt great as well. The LT1 is also in the c7 corvette, another great performance vehicle. I dont think the "older ford design" had 455hp 455tq from the factory (more for the corvette)..but ok. The hood props vs hood struts was kind of a side jab.
Like I said, you don't have to do a subframe lockout and I didn't notice a big difference. I did it because it was cheap and easy. I think most reviewers say that they pick the GT350 to buy even though they do say the ZL1 1LE is faster on track. Probably because they realize they aren't going to get money or prizes for a slightly faster lap time, but they have to live with a car both on and off track. So the reviewers select the car they PREFER to own. The GT350. And I've never, ever heard a big name reviewer say they would pick the SS 1LE over a GT350 for anything.

I'm sure it's possible to find someone who loves Camaros who will say that though. Heck, I'm sure you'll say it, though I bet you haven't spent a lot of time in a GT350.

There's nothing wrong with the LS series of engines. They are great. I agree. You can EASILY make the same power as a modern LS engine with a Ford engine from the 60s if you have modern cylinder heads and similar cubic inches, though. From a power production standpoint, there's nothing amazing there. In fact you can make 455 HP without needing 376 cubic inches to do it. Here's a 363 Ford crate engine that makes 507 HP out of the box. And it's a similar 60s design to the LS engine. It's also a more compact design than an LS.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363RT

Like I said, LS engines are good. Just like Fords from the 60s were good. The LT1 has direct injection though, which I would say is a disadvantage.


The V-6 1LE tires are just the regular SS run flat tires and SS suspension and probably not any stiffer than a GT. I don't know what it is but with the 130+ hp disadvantage and with a pretty basic suspension bits and be able to outpace a GT PP1 at VIR proves it to me. That's just me though.

And yes, I can tell who put back more of our dollar building the car even before I can take a peek in the engine compartment by the weight of the their hoods.
Always loved the mustang but I know when to give credit where credit is due.
Umm, no. Not even close. The V6 1LE gets Goodyear Eagle F1 summer only tires according to Chevrolet. And yes when you have a lighter engine, the springs from a V8 car are stiff. Give me a break.

https://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages

And if Chevy spent a lot on the Camaro, they didn't do a good job in selecting where to spend it. They made a car that is being outsold by every competitor. Even the ancient Dodge design (with very little money spent) is preferred over the Camaro. I guess it's the head of the Camaro development project who did a bad job. That person had the wrong goals for the car or something. They weren't supposed to try to make a race car. They were supposed to make a car that's fun to drive.

The PP1 is an insult to the word 'performance'. Ford sucks at (factory) suspension and the stupid-ass choice to make a "sports car" drive a quietly as a Camry was a huge disservice to the buying public IMO.
PP1 is not set up to be a track car. I agree. I own one and it's scary the lack of body control when you get on it too aggressively at speed. And the tires are junk in my opinion. I bought mine used but it had new tires on it. I told the dealer they should have spent for some decent tires rather than putting that crap on there. I swapped out the suspension and I'm going to be doing some work on improving the cooling before I go to the track with it.

PP1 is definitely set up for people using their Mustang in a normal fashion with a little performance driving on the street but not flaunting the law. PP1 is not set up for hard core track people or even people like me who want to run maybe just a couple times a year, but want to be able to run all out when at the track. If you think PP1 option should be set up as a hard core track-ready vehicle, that's your opinion and you don't have to buy one. Lots of people have purchased the PP1 Mustang GT. I think that means Ford did a good job in setting up a PP1 option that either many or most people like. Not everyone is like you and me.
 

Adamone92

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Like I said, you don't have to do a subframe lockout and I didn't notice a big difference. I did it because it was cheap and easy. I think most reviewers say that they pick the GT350 to buy even though they do say the ZL1 1LE is faster on track. Probably because they realize they aren't going to get money or prizes for a slightly faster lap time, but they have to live with a car both on and off track. So the reviewers select the car they PREFER to own. The GT350. And I've never, ever heard a big name reviewer say they would pick the SS 1LE over a GT350 for anything.

I'm sure it's possible to find someone who loves Camaros who will say that though. Heck, I'm sure you'll say it, though I bet you haven't spent a lot of time in a GT350.

There's nothing wrong with the LS series of engines. They are great. I agree. You can EASILY make the same power as a modern LS engine with a Ford engine from the 60s if you have modern cylinder heads and similar cubic inches, though. From a power production standpoint, there's nothing amazing there. In fact you can make 455 HP without needing 376 cubic inches to do it. Here's a 363 Ford crate engine that makes 507 HP out of the box. And it's a similar 60s design to the LS engine. It's also a more compact design than an LS.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363RT

Like I said, LS engines are good. Just like Fords from the 60s were good. The LT1 has direct injection though, which I would say is a disadvantage.




Umm, no. Not even close. The V6 1LE gets Goodyear Eagle F1 summer only tires according to Chevrolet. And yes when you have a lighter engine, the springs from a V8 car are stiff. Give me a break.

https://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages

And if Chevy spent a lot on the Camaro, they didn't do a good job in selecting where to spend it. They made a car that is being outsold by every competitor. Even the ancient Dodge design (with very little money spent) is preferred over the Camaro. I guess it's the head of the Camaro development project who did a bad job. That person had the wrong goals for the car or something. They weren't supposed to try to make a race car. They were supposed to make a car that's fun to drive.



PP1 is not set up to be a track car. I agree. I own one and it's scary the lack of body control when you get on it too aggressively at speed. And the tires are junk in my opinion. I bought mine used but it had new tires on it. I told the dealer they should have spent for some decent tires rather than putting that crap on there. I swapped out the suspension and I'm going to be doing some work on improving the cooling before I go to the track with it.

PP1 is definitely set up for people using their Mustang in a normal fashion with a little performance driving on the street but not flaunting the law. PP1 is not set up for hard core track people or even people like me who want to run maybe just a couple times a year, but want to be able to run all out when at the track. If you think PP1 option should be set up as a hard core track-ready vehicle, that's your opinion and you don't have to buy one. Lots of people have purchased the PP1 Mustang GT. I think that means Ford did a good job in setting up a PP1 option that either many or most people like. Not everyone is like you and me.
Idk. I just read this and think you are delusional.

Like i said before, for the price, the camaro has been a better track vehicle for clear reasons and with NA applications has also won on the drag strip. The steeda NA mustang wouldn't even be top 10 if it were a camaro, and the ss 1le competes with the gt350 around a track for significantly less price. The reviews ive seen CLEARLY say zle and ss 1le around track. Most pick the gt350 as the daily over the zle for comfort reasons but those same people DID prefer the ss 1le over the gt350 for track and daily driver as its more compliant (than the zle for daily use). You say you dont "think" they did, but i know they did. Unless my ears and eyes decieved me. Yes ive driven the gt350, and i wasnt impressed. Its a nice vehicle, but not for me. A vehicle that is more expensive, looks bland on the interior vs its exterior, and performs at the same level as the ss 1le wasnt appealing to me and i wasnt going to pay an additonal premium over what it should be just because someones name is on it. The gt500 is a different story but not in my price range.

Boosted the coyote wins for sure, and for daily driving, while it is more opinion based..the mustang probably comes out on top.

Track times speak for themselves though. You keep bringing up sales numbers but that isnt even the argument when you are talking performance. You're comparing apples to oranges since 99% of people buying these cars arent worried about being the fastest thing ever, straight line or track, and there can be many different variables into play such as brand loyalty, mustang reputation, advertising, personal preferences.. etc. I love the mustang but i can give credit where credit is due and based off of your replies, you cant seem to swallow your pride and do that. Even when people on this very forum have both and say on the track, the camaro is superior and the mustang needs a lot of money to come close and still is second tier. As a daily, well..thats more preference and its stupid to really argue that.
 
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Hack

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Idk. I just read this and think you are delusional.

Like i said before, for the price, the camaro has been a better track vehicle for clear reasons and with NA applications has also won on the drag strip. The steeda NA mustang wouldn't even be top 10 if it were a camaro, and the ss 1le competes with the gt350 around a track for significantly less price. The reviews ive seen CLEARLY say zle and ss 1le around track. Most pick the gt350 as the daily over the zle for comfort reasons but those same people DID prefer the ss 1le over the gt350 for track and daily driver as its more compliant (than the zle for daily use). You say you dont "think" they did, but i know they did. Unless my ears and eyes decieved me. Yes ive driven the gt350, and i wasnt impressed. Its a nice vehicle, but not for me. A vehicle that is more expensive, looks bland on the interior vs its exterior, and performs at the same level as the ss 1le wasnt appealing to me and i wasnt going to pay an additonal premium over what it should be just because someones name is on it. The gt500 is a different story but not in my price range.

Boosted the coyote wins for sure, and for daily driving, while it is more opinion based..the mustang probably comes out on top.

Track times speak for themselves though. You keep bringing up sales numbers but that isnt even the argument when you are talking performance. You're comparing apples to oranges since 99% of people buying these cars arent worried about being the fastest thing ever, straight line or track, and there can be many different variables into play such as brand loyalty, mustang reputation, advertising, personal preferences.. etc. I love the mustang but i can give credit where credit is due and based off of your replies, you cant seem to swallow your pride and do that. Even when people on this very forum have both and say on the track, the camaro is superior and the mustang needs a lot of money to come close and still is second tier. As a daily, well..thats more preference and its stupid to really argue that.
Speaking of delusions, you think a car with one of the best engines ever built is not as good as something with a bland engine that makes way less power. Wow.

Sales numbers mean that people like one vehicle better. Mustang. And they also like Challenger more than Camaro.

I think the Camaro is by far inferior. And most people agree. Otherwise they would have bought one.

I've already agreed several times that the Camaro is slightly faster on track. Whoopty ding dong. I spend 99%+ of my time driving on the street, even though I go to the track as much as I can. It would be foolish to buy a car just for that. And most people aren't foolish.

And even on track, my purpose is to have fun. It would be really dumb for me to worry about a second or two and buy something that's less fun for that extra second. I don't even time myself on track. Why would I? I'm not winning or losing something.
 
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shogun32

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I just jumped into my Camaro after about 6 weeks of not driving it. The foot sill is definitely wider on the Camaro, the seat is lower and the max upward deflection of the steering column is big time less. As soon as I drove to my little fun loop a thought popped into my head. A Camaro is an actual sports car. A Mustang is a sporty sedan, yes even my Steeda dual-rate sprung, pro-Action shock equipped car. The Mustang feels really good when you push it and the front end digs in and comes bellowing out of the 200 degree curve. Did the same exact loop at the same speed within minutes of switching cars and the Camaro just shrugs, and "this is you trying? lame!"

Absolutely the design of the Camaro body needs to be divorced from the design team who did the Corvette. There's no rational need for the sills being 2-3" higher than they have any need to be or the roofline being a good ~2" low except it appears to be deliberately designed to mimic the Corvette bathtub.

Like I said, you don't have to do a subframe lockout and I didn't notice a big difference.
IMO then you weren't paying attention. Or your lockout kit was not particularly effective. When I did mine I could tell quite clearly the backend of the car was now attached to the front.

Oh and the Camaro's Tremec was effortless and smooth without so much as a hint of 2-3 reluctance. The MT82-D4 in my '19 with Steeda bracket and Steeda short-throw is vastly stiffer, gritty and notchy (we'll call it "positive"?) and kicks back (to varying degrees) on 2-3 shifts depending on engine RPM and speed of motion. Now granted some prefer the tactile "fight" with the Ford shifter and to be perfectly honest a little more sensation/heft out of the Tremec would be preferred.
 
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Adamone92

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Speaking of delusions, you think a car with one of the best engines ever built is not as good as something with a bland engine that makes way less power. Wow.

Sales numbers mean that people like one vehicle better. Mustang. And they also like Challenger more than Camaro.

I think the Camaro is by far inferior. And most people agree. Otherwise they would have bought one.

I've already agreed several times that the Camaro is slightly faster on track. Whoopty ding dong. I spend 99%+ of my time driving on the street, even though I go to the track as much as I can. It would be foolish to buy a car just for that. And most people aren't foolish.

And even on track, my purpose is to have fun. It would be really dumb for me to worry about a second or two and buy something that's less fun for that extra second. I don't even time myself on track. Why would I? I'm not winning or losing something.
? If you could read, ive said the coyote is probably the better engine multiple times. That does NOT mean the lt1 is a bad engine or that the lt1 hasnt beaten the coyote NA build wise. And way less power? Boosted yes, NA no. The lt1 wins NA. Reference back to what i said about the silver bullet by steeda.

The main selling point to me on the camaro is it felt MUCH better. No comparison. I sold my supercharged mustang and got a new 2ss 1le camaro and it feels so much better. Has better features (more features and creature comforts), and has the inherent capability of performing better. For the price the mustang is more than slightly slower since i bought my 2ss 1le for cheaper than a pp1. The 1ss 1le would be even less.

Again you bring up sales, when i already said why that is. The mustang could be the worst performing sports car in the world, and the camaro the best, and the mustang would still probably outsell it. So the inferior card is a bit redundant imo. Even if it were true.
 

shogun32

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Lots of people have purchased the PP1 Mustang GT.
of course. I did too. But it wouldn't have cost Ford a penny more to put the FRPP track shocks and spring set on the PP1 which is actually a worthwhile "performance" enhancement. It's not the least bit 'harsh' or unsuitable for DD. The stock non-PP car is just an embarrassing marshmallow fluff that IMO should never have been sold at all, but then again most Mustang buyers aren't the lest bit interested in useful performance it would appear...

Ford 3/4-assed the PP2 unfortunately and yes, marketing that as a truly track capable car with all the requisite coolers is the only message that makes sense, but protecting the inflated self-worth and differentiation of the GT350 was more important I guess.

When will Ford learn that like lawyers, the only good bean counter is one that doesn't work for Ford ruining products at every turn? (I'd use the more correct, stronger language version of the phrase but, forum ...)
 

Idaho2018GTPremium

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Justin Bieber sells way more albums than The Bravery. That doesn't mean he's a better or more talented musician (he's not even close).

As far as actual "proof" that the Alpha chassis is superior, most likely only the chassis engineers could show those hard values (chassis deflection values, suspension geometry values, etc.). I'm sure they are in the calculations and could be shown. But I have several thoughts on my own using anecdotal evidence:

Ever wondered why an SS 1LE, ZL1, or ZLE does not need a strut tower brace but all the Mustangs (including the GT350R) do? The answer is chassis stiffness.

The ZL1 is faster than a GT350R around a track on inferior tires without a big rear CF wing or CF wheels. The ZL1 wears very good Goodyear Supercars, but they are not Cup 2s like the GT350R or R compounds of the ZLE. Sure, the extra power definitely helps those times, but if you actually analyze the turning g's and braking g's turn by turn, the ZL1 is close on most and even outgrips the GT350R in some turns and brake zones. A heavier car with narrower, less sticky tires without a big wing and no CF wheels and no strut tower brace out gripping the GT350R? That's a lot of evidence of a superior chassis. Check out the track comparison pic at the end of this post, with Randy Pobst driving the ZL1 vs GT350R same day. Link to the article: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2017 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R: The Forever War (motortrend.com)

Nurburgring:
ZL1 'ring time: 7:29
GT350R ring time: 7:32 (same arguments above apply)

The ZL1 does all this without bouncing around on bumpy tracks or roads like an R. I realize the R is VERY good, no doubt, but so is the ZL1 - it is very composed and comfortable - and has all the bells and whistles.

I won't even go into the M6 ZLE's ring time of 7:16...oh wait I just did. The R and ZLE are not even close around a track, much less a base GT350. The R and ZLE are in different brackets. That's what the GT500 CFTP is for, to compete w/ the ZLE with 110 more hp and much more money. FWIW, Randy Pobst chose the ZLE over the GT500 CFTP in the Throttle House head to head - his opinion trumps most when it comes to handling.

Last year C&D performed a head to head of the PP2 vs SS 1LE - the SS won, and if you read that article, the Camaro was much better sorted. Even though they liked the PP2, the SS 1LE was better. Again, no strut tower brace on the Camaro. Complaints of uncompliant suspension and tramlining in the PP2. No tramlining in the SS 1LE though, no doubt in part aided by a better chassis and front suspension geometry. Here's a quote from the article: "The Ford lost this comparison test by only three points. That’s close. But that’s not how it felt to our two voters. There was never a circumstance when our drivers wouldn’t have preferred to drive the Camaro instead of the Mustang.... Its [The PP2's] terrain-tracking combined with an inability to deal with water-covered pavement made the car a nervous wreck through construction zones in the rain. The PPL2’s stiff suspenders also made it more susceptible to freeway hop than the Camaro."

On the Cup 2s, the PP2 gripped 1.13 g's, but the SS 1LE on the inferior Goodyear Supercars went 1.11 g's and they essentially tied in the slalom (45.3 vs 45.4 mph).

Also, the SS 1LE tested was 48 lbs lighter than the PP2 and that is with all the heat exchangers necessary for track, and 3 extra gallons of gas (19 lbs). If Ford were to add the coolers and 3 gal to the fuel tank, the PP2 would weigh 100 lbs more than the SS 1LE.

Other evidence: The Camaro has a better front:rear weight balance than the Mustang. In the above test the PP2 was 54.5/45.5 and the SS 1LE was 53.6/46.4 -- can't get much better than that without a transaxle. For what it's worth, the supercharged ZLE is 54/46 (rounded) while the GT500 CFTP is 56/44 (also rounded).

In Head to heads most people choose the Mustang, trim for time, because it IS more livable and iconic, and yeah, it looks better (trim for trim). Most people in the professional driving world choose the Camaro for its performance, trim for trim, over a Mustang. It's better sorted and everyone who drives them back to back can feel that. As a Mustang owner it always bugged me that they always said the Camaro felt so much better, because I always felt my GT PP1 A10 w/ MagneRide felt great.

Interior feel and styling is subjective, and I liked the ZL1's interior better than the '20 GT500's interior that I sat in previously. Though, to be frank, my GT Premium's interior feels nicer than the GT500 I sat in (seems backwards).

1610394951662.png
 
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Hack

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IMO then you weren't paying attention. Or your lockout kit was not particularly effective. When I did mine I could tell quite clearly the backend of the car was now attached to the front.
Maybe on the GT the lockouts make more difference than they do on the GT350. I really didn't notice a big difference on the GT350. Maybe it was at a time when I had a longer break between track events and that's why I didn't notice. Not sure.

? If you could read, ive said the coyote is probably the better engine multiple times. That does NOT mean the lt1 is a bad engine or that the lt1 hasnt beaten the coyote NA build wise. And way less power? Boosted yes, NA no. The lt1 wins NA. Reference back to what i said about the silver bullet by steeda.
I was talking about the Voodoo, not the Coyote. But yes I do agree that the Ford engines are more sporty in nature.

of course. I did too. But it wouldn't have cost Ford a penny more to put the FRPP track shocks and spring set on the PP1 which is actually a worthwhile "performance" enhancement. It's not the least bit 'harsh' or unsuitable for DD. The stock non-PP car is just an embarrassing marshmallow fluff that IMO should never have been sold at all, but then again most Mustang buyers aren't the lest bit interested in useful performance it would appear...

Ford 3/4-assed the PP2 unfortunately and yes, marketing that as a truly track capable car with all the requisite coolers is the only message that makes sense, but protecting the inflated self-worth and differentiation of the GT350 was more important I guess.

When will Ford learn that like lawyers, the only good bean counter is one that doesn't work for Ford ruining products at every turn? (I'd use the more correct, stronger language version of the phrase but, forum ...)
I wish Ford would have made a less expensive track worthy Mustang as well. I think they built the car for the majority of buyers and most Mustang buyers aren't as into track performance as we are. I decided that for me this time around I prefer to buy a Mustang and modify it for track use rather than go with something else. I was definitely looking hard at Camaros but I thought the Mustang was a better choice for me.
 

Hack

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Justin Bieber sells way more albums than The Bravery. That doesn't mean he's a better or more talented musician (he's not even close).

As far as actual "proof" that the Alpha chassis is superior, most likely only the chassis engineers could show those hard values (chassis deflection values, suspension geometry values, etc.). I'm sure they are in the calculations and could be shown. But I have several thoughts on my own using anecdotal evidence:

Ever wondered why an SS 1LE, ZL1, or ZLE does not need a strut tower brace but all the Mustangs (including the GT350R) do? The answer is chassis stiffness.

The ZL1 is faster than a GT350R around a track on inferior tires without a big rear CF wing or CF wheels. The ZL1 wears very good Goodyear Supercars, but they are not Cup 2s like the GT350R or R compounds of the ZLE. Sure, the extra power definitely helps those times, but if you actually analyze the turning g's and braking g's turn by turn, the ZL1 is close on most and even outgrips the GT350R in some turns and brake zones. A heavier car with narrower, less sticky tires without a big wing and no CF wheels and no strut tower brace out gripping the GT350R? That's a lot of evidence of a superior chassis. Check out the track comparison pic at the end of this post, with Randy Pobst driving the ZL1 vs GT350R same day. Link to the article: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2017 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R: The Forever War (motortrend.com)

Nurburgring:
ZL1 'ring time: 7:29
GT350R ring time: 7:32 (same arguments above apply)

The ZL1 does all this without bouncing around on bumpy tracks or roads like an R. I realize the R is VERY good, no doubt, but so is the ZL1 - it is very composed and comfortable - and has all the bells and whistles.

I won't even go into the M6 ZLE's ring time of 7:16...oh wait I just did. The R and ZLE are not even close around a track, much less a base GT350. The R and ZLE are in different brackets. That's what the GT500 CFTP is for, to compete w/ the ZLE with 110 more hp and much more money. FWIW, Randy Pobst chose the ZLE over the GT500 CFTP in the Throttle House head to head - his opinion trumps most when it comes to handling.

Last year C&D performed a head to head of the PP2 vs SS 1LE - the SS won, and if you read that article, the Camaro was much better sorted. Even though they liked the PP2, the SS 1LE was better. Again, no strut tower brace on the Camaro. Complaints of uncompliant suspension and tramlining in the PP2. No tramlining in the SS 1LE though, no doubt in part aided by a better chassis and front suspension geometry. Here's a quote from the article: "The Ford lost this comparison test by only three points. That’s close. But that’s not how it felt to our two voters. There was never a circumstance when our drivers wouldn’t have preferred to drive the Camaro instead of the Mustang.... Its [The PP2's] terrain-tracking combined with an inability to deal with water-covered pavement made the car a nervous wreck through construction zones in the rain. The PPL2’s stiff suspenders also made it more susceptible to freeway hop than the Camaro."

On the Cup 2s, the PP2 gripped 1.13 g's, but the SS 1LE on the inferior Goodyear Supercars went 1.11 g's and they essentially tied in the slalom (45.3 vs 45.4 mph).

Also, the SS 1LE tested was 48 lbs lighter than the PP2 and that is with all the heat exchangers necessary for track, and 3 extra gallons of gas (19 lbs). If Ford were to add the coolers and 3 gal to the fuel tank, the PP2 would weigh 100 lbs more than the SS 1LE.

Other evidence: The Camaro has a better front:rear weight balance than the Mustang. In the above test the PP2 was 54.5/45.5 and the SS 1LE was 53.6/46.4 -- can't get much better than that without a transaxle. For what it's worth, the supercharged ZLE is 54/46 (rounded) while the GT500 CFTP is 56/44 (also rounded).

In Head to heads most people choose the Mustang, trim for time, because it IS more livable and iconic, and yeah, it looks better (trim for trim). Most people in the professional driving world choose the Camaro for its performance, trim for trim, over a Mustang. It's better sorted and everyone who drives them back to back can feel that. As a Mustang owner it always bugged me that they always said the Camaro felt so much better, because I always felt my GT PP1 A10 w/ MagneRide felt great.

Interior feel and styling is subjective, and I liked the ZL1's interior better than the '20 GT500's interior that I sat in previously. Though, to be frank, my GT Premium's interior feels nicer than the GT500 I sat in (seems backwards).

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Really good post.

I can't argue with a lot of what you said. However, everything you said trying to prove the Camaro chassis is better than the Mustang chassis ended up with the phrase, "I think". And you have to say that the Camaro doesn't have as good of tires as the Mustang. And forget that the Camaro has stiffer suspension when compared model by model.

Yes the GT350 has more steering feel than the Camaro. That's what I want in a performance car. I think it's terrific. If you want to look at it in a negative light you call it tramlining. If you want to look at the Camaro's steering feel in a negative light you call it NUMB. And it has been called that a number of times in professional reviews.

0.9% better weight balance is extremely small, but it is a real difference - as is the lower weight you mentioned. It might be the entire difference in performance between the cars is that 0.9% and slightly lower weight.

I think the Camaro does slightly better in some situations because it is slightly smaller. Also small trunk and window openings may help. I'd like to know if the chassis is actually stiffer or not. And if so, how much stiffer? I agree we will probably never know as only employees of the respective companies probably have this information.
 
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Flyhalf

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It is a great
Really good post.

I can't argue with a lot of what you said. However, everything you said trying to prove the Camaro chassis is better than the Mustang chassis ended up with the phrase, "I think". And you have to say that the Camaro doesn't have as good of tires as the Mustang. And forget that the Camaro has stiffer suspension when compared model by model.

Yes the GT350 has more steering feel than the Camaro. That's what I want in a performance car. I think it's terrific. If you want to look at it in a negative light you call it tramlining. If you want to look at the Camaro's steering feel in a negative light you call it NUMB. And it has been called that a number of times in professional reviews.

0.9% better weight balance is extremely small, but it is a real difference - as is the lower weight you mentioned. It might be the entire difference in performance between the cars is that 0.9% and slightly lower weight.

I think the Camaro does slightly better in some situations because it is slightly smaller. Also small trunk and window openings may help. I'd like to know if the chassis is actually stiffer or not. And if so, how much stiffer? I agree we will probably never know as only employees of the respective companies probably have this information.
Great writing. Thanks for the input.
By the way I'll be at willow springs sunday with the mustamg on 200tw tires. I'll try to grt closer to Randy time. Will report. Is the rd1 super gt cup
 

Adamone92

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I think the Camaro does slightly better in some situations because it is slightly smaller. Also small trunk and window openings may help. I'd like to know if the chassis is actually stiffer or not. And if so, how much stiffer? I agree we will probably never know as only employees of the respective companies probably have this information.
Could be a good question for GM on camaro6 gorums. They reply to users questions about the camaro, and have given tons of great info and tests about the 1le
 

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It is a great

Great writing. Thanks for the input.
By the way I'll be at willow springs sunday with the mustamg on 200tw tires. I'll try to grt closer to Randy time. Will report. Is the rd1 super gt cup
btw, congrats on your 1st place finish. may have to follow your youtube channel
 

wingnutt

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lol, am I the only one that is laughing out here?!?

Quoting a Motor Trend article that try’s numerous times to explain away why the 350R is within sneezing distance of the ZL1 with 200 less torque and 120 less horsepower, and then using the same article to declare how superior the ZL1 chassis is...

...who gives a crap man, buy what ya like and drive it, this argument will go on until the end of time :)🙃:)
 

Idaho2018GTPremium

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lol, am I the only one that is laughing out here?!?

Quoting a Motor Trend article that try’s numerous times to explain away why the 350R is within sneezing distance of the ZL1 with 200 less torque and 120 less horsepower, and then using the same article to declare how superior the ZL1 chassis is...

...who gives a crap man, buy what ya like and drive it, this argument will go on until the end of time :)🙃:)
Yeah, I know - it's a fun argument that will go on and on...my post was in response to the back and forth of Hack and Adam -- so they obviously care enough to discuss it here. If no one argued for one car or the other, then there would be no vs. section (or it would be extremely boring).

One of my main points about the ZL1 vs. GT350R Motortrend article was that the ZL1 is heavier, has narrower less sticky tires, no big CF wing, no CF wheels, yet still was able to outgrip and outbrake the R in some areas on the track. Physics says that shouldn't be possible if everything else were equal. So there must be an advantage somewhere that allows the ZL1 with those inherent disadvantages to achieve that.
 

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