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"Mustang Mach E" Confirmed, Reservations Begin Immediately After Nov 17 Live-Streamed Reveal

How will Ford naming it's new electric SUV "Mustang Mach E" impact your future purchase decisions.

  • Much more likely to purchase a traditional Mustang coupe.

    Votes: 49 12.5%
  • Slightly more likely to purchase a traditional Mustang coupe.

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • No change

    Votes: 219 55.9%
  • Slightly less likely to purchase a traditional Mustang coupe.

    Votes: 55 14.0%
  • Much less likely to purchase a traditional Mustang coupe.

    Votes: 63 16.1%

  • Total voters
    392

martinjlm

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I completely get this.



We don't even do much where an SUV would be the better option, certainly not often enough to even begin to justify owning and maintaining such a vehicle.

It's not that I feel that SUVs shouldn't exist; it's more that they shouldn't be given license to crowd traditional sedans and sporty coupes out of the market.


Norm
SUVs and CUVs are crowding out sedans and sporty coupes because that what consumers are choosing. The downward spiral of sedans has been evident since at least 2012. Manufacturers are just reacting to what consumers have been saying they prefer.

This is the part where everybody says ”so why are they cramming BEVs down our throats?” That is a bit more complicated due to government and NGO (non-government organizations). Since the big push is for carbon footprint reduction, electric vehicles are the more logical answer. This is the part where people say “...but coal fueled power generation...”. Another area where the governments and NGOs are pushing hard is the conversion of power generation to cleaner sources.

So, now that several car companies have discovered that the development cycle for BEVs is actually shorter than for ICE platforms, several of them (GM, VW, BMW, Daimler, Nissan, and yes, even Ford) are on board and looking at ways of making BEV version of the vehicle configurations that customers want to buy in high volume. That’s why we have (6) BEV pickups coming to market within the next 15 months and more BEV SUVs and CUVs than I can count. Not a lot of sedans, though. I count maybe four. And a handful of performance vehicles.
 

Norm Peterson

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But do the 20 somethings have crushes on the same things you did when you were 20 - nope! They live on their phones and tech is everything. They would choose the bottom one every time!
And that will be their loss, just like living their virtual life instead of in an up-close-and-personal real one already is.


Norm
 

Gregs24

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SUVs and CUVs are crowding out sedans and sporty coupes because that what consumers are choosing. The downward spiral of sedans has been evident since at least 2012. Manufacturers are just reacting to what consumers have been saying they prefer.
The irony is (at least in Europe) is that SUV's are getting smaller and lower and closer to saloon cars ! The Ford Puma (lifestyle small SUV) over here is the same dimensions as the Mk1 Focus which was a 5dr hatchback, but if you asked consumers they are very different vehicles.

4dr saloons have not been popular over here for some time with the exception of the Germans who have always liked them
 

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Gregs24

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And that will be their loss, just like living their virtual life instead of in an up-close-and-personal real one already is.


Norm
Maybe? We didn't have their choice as the tech wasn't around when we were young. They actually have more choice so hard to really call it a loss. Times change and so do the people and what they value. My two don't seem to be losing out too badly in their world.

It is a different world, better in some ways and worse in others.
 

Norm Peterson

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SUVs and CUVs are crowding out sedans and sporty coupes because that what consumers are choosing. The downward spiral of sedans has been evident since at least 2012. Manufacturers are just reacting to what consumers have been saying they prefer.
It feels like most mfrs are taking a more active role than just one of reacting - near as I can tell, they're not giving sedans even the hind you-know-what at the advertising milk supply. It sure feels like Ford is actively pushing everybody into SUVs and trucks . . . even a search on 'Ford' brings up "Ford® - New Hybrid & Electric Vehicles, SUVs, Crossovers ..." with no mention of "Cars". The 'Cars' tab itself has been bumped down to last place on the tabs line.


This is the part where everybody says ”so why are they cramming BEVs down our throats?” That is a bit more complicated due to government and NGO (non-government organizations). Since the big push is for carbon footprint reduction, electric vehicles are the more logical answer. This is the part where people say “...but coal fueled power generation...”. Another area where the governments and NGOs are pushing hard is the conversion of power generation to cleaner sources.
Is full conversion to 'clean' sources even possible? What consequences, seen or as yet unseen, might be uncovered later?


So, now that several car companies have discovered that the development cycle for BEVs is actually shorter than for ICE platforms, several of them (GM, VW, BMW, Daimler, Nissan, and yes, even Ford) are on board and looking at ways of making BEV version of the vehicle configurations that customers want to buy in high volume. That’s why we have (6) BEV pickups coming to market within the next 15 months and more BEV SUVs and CUVs than I can count. Not a lot of sedans, though. I count maybe four. And a handful of performance vehicles.
How much of that is based on ICE emissions and fuel usage standards tending to creep toward 'tighter', vs little or no need for the same on the EV side?

What might happen to development cycles if (when?) EVs suddenly come under the microscope for MPGe numbers because the fruit has been picked clean off of the ICE tree? I know, probably not in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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Maybe? We didn't have their choice as the tech wasn't around when we were young. They actually have more choice so hard to really call it a loss. Times change and so do the people and what they value. My two don't seem to be losing out too badly in their world.

It is a different world, better in some ways and worse in others.
In the real world, you get to make your own opinions rather than have them spoon-fed to you from without.

I can't imagine having to feel obligated to like the same things everybody else does just to fit in . . . or to at least avoid being unfriended or whatever other forms of interpersonal treatment on social media may exist.


Norm
 

martinjlm

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It feels like most mfrs are taking a more active role than just one of reacting - near as I can tell, they're not giving sedans even the hind you-know-what at the advertising milk supply. It sure feels like Ford is actively pushing everybody into SUVs and trucks . . . even a search on 'Ford' brings up "Ford® - New Hybrid & Electric Vehicles, SUVs, Crossovers ..." with no mention of "Cars". The 'Cars' tab itself has been bumped down to last place on the tabs line.

Well, keeping in mind that the trend has been very apparent (at least in the industry analyst / forecasting circles) since at least 2012, I’d say that most manufacturers have reacted at a fairly moderate pace. Manufacturers introduced new CUVs and sedans in that time. But since the CUVs have sold at much higher volume with much higher profit per unit, it only makes sense that they would work to optimize their profits by adjusting the mix. Everybody isn’t going that way, though. Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai-Kia are still investing in new sedans. Even so, RAV4 trounces Camry and Corolla in sales and CR-V trounces Accord and Civic in sales, so it may be just a matter of time until each brand sheds at least one sedan. Home market (Japan) sales of cars helps keep their sedan development alive. Same for Hyundai.



Is full conversion to 'clean' sources even possible? What consequences, seen or as yet unseen, might be uncovered later?
It doesn’t have to be full conversion. It needs to be enough conversion to move the needle. Just like the transition from ICE to BEV doesn’t have to be and probably won’t be 100% conversion. It will be significant enough to make a difference.

How much of that is based on ICE emissions and fuel usage standards tending to creep toward 'tighter', vs little or no need for the same on the EV side?

What might happen to development cycles if (when?) EVs suddenly come under the microscope for MPGe numbers because the fruit has been picked clean off of the ICE tree? I know, probably not in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


Norm
The reason for having emissions regulations, especially for carbon dioxide and for greenhouse gasses is that those emissions harm the health of everything that breathes on this planet. EVs have no such emissions. How much emissions regulation is needed for Zero Emissions Vehicles? As for regulating efficiency, that’s a valid question. But remember that the US fuel economy standards came into play to address a shortage of resources (oil) in the 1970s. Regulating EV efficiency of battery usage could become a thing in the event of shortage of battery capacity or key raw materials required to produce them. Stay tuned for that one. Before we all go “...but lithium supplies...”, even though they are called Lithium Ion batteries, the amount of lithium in a car battery is less than 2% the volume content of the battery. We’re talking less than a teaspoon in most cases. And it’s there for the life of the car.
 

Norm Peterson

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. . . As for regulating efficiency, that’s a valid question. But remember that the US fuel economy standards came into play to address a shortage of resources (oil) in the 1970s. Regulating EV efficiency of battery usage could become a thing in the event of shortage of battery capacity or key raw materials required to produce them. Stay tuned for that one. Before we all go “...but lithium supplies...”, even though they are called Lithium Ion batteries, the amount of lithium in a car battery is less than 2% the volume content of the battery. We’re talking less than a teaspoon in most cases. And it’s there for the life of the car.
That's closer to what I was getting at. I'm somewhat less concerned about the lithium supply as I am about the total recharging demands. The lithium may always be there in the battery, but the power to recharge it is still going to be coming from without and in sufficient quantity to replace what you used up since the previous recharge.

Why wouldn't electric power usage eventually be looked at in similar fashion to what mpg for ICE cars has been for the last 50 years? It's still energy that has to be created.


Norm
 

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Gregs24

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In the real world, you get to make your own opinions rather than have them spoon-fed to you from without.

I can't imagine having to feel obligated to like the same things everybody else does just to fit in . . . or to at least avoid being unfriended or whatever other forms of interpersonal treatment on social media may exist.


Norm
But of course popular things are liked by a lot of people
 

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Before we all go “...but lithium supplies...”, even though they are called Lithium Ion batteries, the amount of lithium in a car battery is less than 2% the volume content of the battery. We’re talking less than a teaspoon in mo
Doesn't change the fact that the chemistry of said batteries is compromised and problematic for a transition to the attributes required to make EVs a significant plurality or majority of the market. Solid state and carbon based batteries will change everything.
 

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But to be fair SUV outsells coupe wouldn't be a shock
Apples and Oranges.

Point is Ford is going heavy with the Mach-E. Be interesting to see how MY production numbers go over the next few years.
 

Norm Peterson

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But of course popular things are liked by a lot of people
And you as an individual are supposed to like the same things that are popular with the herd . . . why???

I can't imagine spending $40+k on the kind of vehicle you don't even care to ride in (no matter whether it's ICE or EV).


Norm
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