Mustang Ecoboost Rental

[ctandc72]

I sense animosity and bad feelings here. So let me play devil’s advocate and tell you that all current Mustangs suck! A guy on this board rented a new Mustang GT and expected neck snapping acceleration and was disappointed.

Why?

Because today’s cars traded that for high end performance hardly anyone uses. My V6 is a torqueless wonder. Move up to a GT and you pay way more for slightly more torqueless wonder. “Neck snapping performance” or “pinned to the seat” - these are no fantasies as I have experienced them; just not in today’s pony cars. One car which was a modded up 60s Camaro did pin me to the seat. I actually felt my guts being squished in it was so good. I still remember it today. Driving that car to do that pull was rediculous but worth the experience.

“GT” is a running joke in the industry today. You slap on GT on a hum drum car to build fake excitement. I just saw a Challenger GT which is an all-wheel drive V6! But here GT is like magic. Blah...

Old farts like me know the truth. The aural and visceral experiences of the bygone hot rod days were different and you kids are being cheated out of that with these torque challenged gutless cars. They may have higher top end performance and a higher top speed (my V6 will put an extra 15mph over my fox bodied 5.0 but the 5.0 was more fun) but how many times a day do you use that. How many times a month do you use that. How many times a year? Or maybe just once when you got the car.


You were cheated. All of you...

I'm well into my 40's. Grew up a gearhead. First car was a '67 SS Chevelle 396 / 4 speed. I've owned and wrenched on a ton of GM muscle cars, a few Fords (mainly to fix up and flip) and a few Mopars. Part of what you are saying is true - but please don't get caught up in the "they don't make 'em like they used to" debate. It's a losing argument.

You want that neck snapping low end grunt? Throw 3.73 gears in your V6. Just that one thing will make you rethink everything you now think about modern vs. old.

Big displacement big blocks? Low end torque...oh yeah. You might overlook the fact they HAD to have that low end grunt to move the 2 ton vehicles they were pushing around.

I miss some of the old styling...but other than that? Thank God they don't build them like they used to...

Drum brakes? Cork gaskets? Flat tappet camshafts? Solid lifters? 4 speeds that everyone talks about now like they were so great - jesus I could swap synchros on a Muncie in a couple of hours including dropping the transmission - not because I was some great mechanic, but because I had to do it so often.

Sure gas was cheap then - but non overdrive 4 speed with 4.11 gears? Neck snapping fun? Sure. Not so fun turning 5K RPM barely keeping up with traffic on the highway...not to mention mapping your trips by where the gas stations were.

Carburetors? As someone who learned how to tune a Qjet (when everyone was tossing them for "easy to tune" Holley carbs) there is nothing like that sound of the secondaries on a tuned QJet opening up....but now? EFI for the win. More power, better mileage...wanna tune it? Hook up a tuner or laptop.

Suspension? Don't even get me started.

Muscle cars will ALWAYS be special for me. But unless it's uber rare and worth $$$$, it's getting modern brakes, suspension, drivetrain etc.

And keep in mind...a BONE STOCK V6 S550 with 3.15 gears runs a faster 1/4 mile than a long list of "musclecars" from the 60's and 70's.

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[TURTL3]

What i dont understand is the people who buy ecoboost to save money, then modify it when stock hp isnt enough and end up with the same amount of money as a gt. It makes no sense to me at all.

Are you familiar with the concept of interest on a long term loan? This is what people seem to forget. Also, I highly doubt normal modding on a EB will rack up to the same amount of money as a GT. Let's say you get a EB at $26k OTD brand new. And Let's say you can get a GT at $30k OTD. That's a $4K difference and you still haven't accounted for the difference in the interest that you would pay out over the term of the loan and the increased insurance premium on the GT. $4k in mods can go a long way.

I really don't get how people don't understand the concept of a value proposition. People choose products based on their budget. "just saving for a GT" isn't always viable or the best choice for everyone.

 

[Fatguy]

I'm well into my 40's. Grew up a gearhead. First car was a '67 SS Chevelle 396 / 4 speed. I've owned and wrenched on a ton of GM muscle cars, a few Fords (mainly to fix up and flip) and a few Mopars. Part of what you are saying is true - but please don't get caught up in the "they don't make 'em like they used to" debate. It's a losing argument.

You want that neck snapping low end grunt? Throw 3.73 gears in your V6. Just that one thing will make you rethink everything you now think about modern vs. old.

Big displacement big blocks? Low end torque...oh yeah. You might overlook the fact they HAD to have that low end grunt to move the 2 ton vehicles they were pushing around.

I miss some of the old styling...but other than that? Thank God they don't build them like they used to...

Drum brakes? Cork gaskets? Flat tappet camshafts? Solid lifters? 4 speeds that everyone talks about now like they were so great - jesus I could swap synchros on a Muncie in a couple of hours including dropping the transmission - not because I was some great mechanic, but because I had to do it so often.

Sure gas was cheap then - but non overdrive 4 speed with 4.11 gears? Neck snapping fun? Sure. Not so fun turning 5K RPM barely keeping up with traffic on the highway...not to mention mapping your trips by where the gas stations were.

Carburetors? As someone who learned how to tune a Qjet (when everyone was tossing them for "easy to tune" Holley carbs) there is nothing like that sound of the secondaries on a tuned QJet opening up....but now? EFI for the win. More power, better mileage...wanna tune it? Hook up a tuner or laptop.

Suspension? Don't even get me started.

Muscle cars will ALWAYS be special for me. But unless it's uber rare and worth $$$$, it's getting modern brakes, suspension, drivetrain etc.

And keep in mind...a BONE STOCK V6 S550 with 3.15 gears runs a faster 1/4 mile than a long list of "musclecars" from the 60's and 70's.

I hear you but the cars were very simple and you could actually work on them without a computer programmer. The brakes and suspension don’t bother me in the slightest. The carbs are another story especially on cold rainy days! ;). But they were fun and simple and very cheap. Today’s cars get the numbers but they get it with better tires and launches and better acceleration after the launch. But it’s boring - like acceleration in a Tesla.


I don’t care that my V6 is faster than my first 5.0.! Back then the 5.0 was one of the fastest cars on the road. Only the Corvette could beat it and on flat roads they needed to pass 110mph to close that door (don’t ask me how I know). Everyone else lived in fear, avoided you, gave you respect! Not like driving the V6 today. So there is a difference. Plus the new 1987s and up had throttle response that was out of this world for that time. There was always that!

 

[Cheo]

What i dont understand is the people who buy ecoboost to save money, then modify it when stock hp isnt enough and end up with the same amount of money as a gt. It makes no sense to me at all.

Hardly the same amount of money. Ford Performance tune and a good intercooler can be had for under $1k and its all you need. PP has all the suspension goodies already. https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9603-M4

 

[TURTL3]

I hear you but the cars were very simple and you could actually work on them without a computer programmer. The brakes and suspension don’t bother me in the slightest. The carbs are another story especially on cold rainy days! ;). But they were fun and simple and very cheap. Today’s cars get the numbers but they get it with better tires and launches and better acceleration after the launch. But it’s boring - like acceleration in a Tesla.


I don’t care that my V6 is faster than my first 5.0.! Back then the 5.0 was one of the fastest cars on the road. Only the Corvette could beat it and on flat roads they needed to pass 110mph to close that door (don’t ask me how I know). Everyone else lived in fear, avoided you, gave you respect! Not like driving the V6 today. So there is a difference. Plus the new 1987s and up had throttle response that was out of this world for that time. There was always that!

Those old school cars still exist. If you want them, go buy them. I get your nostalgia, but all the complaints about modern cars being too big and too boring are a bit silly. If Ford was still selling the same car now that they were 30 years ago, we'd be talking about another bail out.

Remember the pick three rule: fast, affordable, reliable. Modern cars are the closest we've ever got to actually getting all three things in one car.

 

[tw557]

I sense animosity and bad feelings here. So let me play devil’s advocate and tell you that all current Mustangs suck! A guy on this board rented a new Mustang GT and expected neck snapping acceleration and was disappointed.

Why?

Because today’s cars traded that for high end performance hardly anyone uses. My V6 is a torqueless wonder. Move up to a GT and you pay way more for slightly more torqueless wonder. “Neck snapping performance” or “pinned to the seat” - these are no fantasies as I have experienced them; just not in today’s pony cars. One car which was a modded up 60s Camaro did pin me to the seat. I actually felt my guts being squished in it was so good. I still remember it today. Driving that car to do that pull was rediculous but worth the experience.

“GT” is a running joke in the industry today. You slap on GT on a hum drum car to build fake excitement. I just saw a Challenger GT which is an all-wheel drive V6! But here GT is like magic. Blah...

Old farts like me know the truth. The aural and visceral experiences of the bygone hot rod days were different and you kids are being cheated out of that with these torque challenged gutless cars. They may have higher top end performance and a higher top speed (my V6 will put an extra 15mph over my fox bodied 5.0 but the 5.0 was more fun) but how many times a day do you use that. How many times a month do you use that. How many times a year? Or maybe just once when you got the car.


You were cheated. All of you...

I have to say for me, you hit the nail exactly on the head for me. On the track these high hp/ high rev motors work incredible. I just don't live on a track. When I built Roadrace motorcycle engines I would always push everything up on the HP scale between cams, valve timing and such. But driving on the street like that was always a pain. The lower RPM Torque settings were much more useful and fun. And without forced induction an engine builder can really only pick one way to build the motor. High Hp/ High revs or low end torque. Really can't have both. Changing gearing works great for acceleration but still usually is just the fix to get you into higher revs. I like to enjoy the power and acceleration without being obnoxious on the street. It does feel like we lost the all around fun motors because of the HP wars.
There are plenty of manufactures that embrace the technology and put Forced Induction on there motors. Audi and BMW for instance can put down so much more torque then these big V8's can. I've gone thru that phase for now but unfortunately no stock mustangs really get me excited with the motor. Maybe one day I can get into a supercharged Gt. But I certainly never want to go back to the handling and road manners of the old cars.

 

[itguy08]

Rose colored glasses sure are fun. As an 80's kid I remember the 5.0 very well. It was a great car for its time. But saying the new 5.0 is gutless and whatnot is nonsense. Even down low the new 5.0 trounces the old one.

Americanmuscle lists the old (1987+)5.0 at around 220-225 hp@4200 and 275-300 lb-ft.@ 3200.

A dyno chart of the 2011 5.0 (https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2011-ford-mustang-gt-50-dyno-tested.html) has the new 5.0 out torquing the old one by 2000 RPM and out HP'ing it by 3500.

No disrespect to the old 5.0 (I would love to find a decent 86GT with T-tops that has not been beat), but the new one is better in every way.

 

[Bull Run]

That's rather ironic in that I recently sold my '18 Grand Sport and ordered my '18 GT. Can you build the Ecoboost to outrun a GT? Absolutely! Can you build a GT to outrun the built Ecoboost? Absolutely! Out of the box they are two different cars. But, both are fun to drive. My F-150 is a 3.5 TT Ecoboost. It has an MPRP catback w/ resonator delete and a tune. It's a little on the loud side, but it doesn't sound as good as the V8. It pulls like an angry mule and will outrun any stock 5.0 F150. Put a whipple on the 5.0 and it wouldn't even be close. I never said I wasn't enjoying the Ecoboost. I definitely do prefer a manual over the auto though. :cheers:

Fair enough, my friend. Perhaps I read too deeply into your auto comment, although this is my first turbo car with an auto, autos actually do make sense for them as you don't lose boost between shift. But it probably won't make a noticeable difference in a rental with crappy stock tune and 87 oct gas.

 

[Fatguy]

Those old school cars still exist. If you want them, go buy them. I get your nostalgia, but all the complaints about modern cars being too big and too boring are a bit silly. If Ford was still selling the same car now that they were 30 years ago, we'd be talking about another bail out.

Remember the pick three rule: fast, affordable, reliable. Modern cars are the closest we've ever got to actually getting all three things in one car.

What I’m trying to say is that back then anyone with a job could buy a 5.0 LX and have practically the fastest car on the street. Faster than Magnum PI’s Ferrari 308! The car was 300 pounds lighter than my V6 and maybe 500-600 pounds lighter than an optioned out GT today. But - back then it ruled! Today all kinds of cars beat a GT and you have to pay through the nose to get it.


If Ford made a truly stripper V8 like back then there would be no Ecoboost or V6. But current regs won’t allow that. THAT is today’s problem!

 

[Fatguy]

Rose colored glasses sure are fun. As an 80's kid I remember the 5.0 very well. It was a great car for its time. But saying the new 5.0 is gutless and whatnot is nonsense. Even down low the new 5.0 trounces the old one.

Americanmuscle lists the old (1987+)5.0 at around 220-225 hp@4200 and 275-300 lb-ft.@ 3200.

A dyno chart of the 2011 5.0 (https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2011-ford-mustang-gt-50-dyno-tested.html) has the new 5.0 out torquing the old one by 2000 RPM and out HP'ing it by 3500.

No disrespect to the old 5.0 (I would love to find a decent 86GT with T-tops that has not been beat), but the new one is better in every way.

Actually horsepower for some of the dragstrip times worked out at 286 horsepower on C&D or R&D. 225 was just discounted. They were also forced to give us a more restricted set of cats years later as they had more free flow than they should. We all loved Ford back then! :ford:

 

[thehunterooo]

Haven't had one of these for a while.

 

[Nagare]

If Ford made a truly stripper V8 like back then there would be no Ecoboost or V6. But current regs won’t allow that. THAT is today’s problem!

If they could build a stripper V8 they could build a stripper Eco or V6 for even cheaper so they would definitely do that. These things are done in a silo of just one engine. What kid would buy a Corolla/Civic when they could get a stripper V6 Stang for the same price?

 

[itguy08]

What I’m trying to say is that back then anyone with a job could buy a 5.0 LX and have practically the fastest car on the street. Faster than Magnum PI’s Ferrari 308! The car was 300 pounds lighter than my V6 and maybe 500-600 pounds lighter than an optioned out GT today. But - back then it ruled! Today all kinds of cars beat a GT and you have to pay through the nose to get it.


If Ford made a truly stripper V8 like back then there would be no Ecoboost or V6. But current regs won’t allow that. THAT is today’s problem!

$35000 MSRP of today is comparable to the $12,106 base price of an 87 GT. And weights are about the same too - 3100 for the 87 and 3878 for the 2018.

Please list the cars of today that go 0-60 in 4.1-4.3 secs? And even lower if you get the GTPP and 10 speed.

I love the old Fox bodies too and they were great for their time. The modern Mustang is better in EVERY way.

 

[Bull Run]

What i dont understand is the people who buy ecoboost to save money, then modify it when stock hp isnt enough and end up with the same amount of money as a gt. It makes no sense to me at all.

1. I don't think that people who bought EBs to mod them (at least power mods) really bought them to save money, since modding can void the warranty and can cost more in the long run if done wrong. Is this not true with GTs as well?

2. MSRP difference between '18 trims is around $10K, about $7K for pre-'18s. It takes about $3,500 (IC, DP, turbo, WMI, tune) to get EB to pre-'18 GT WHP and noticeably higher and flatter WTQ curve. Combined with lighter weight, it should out accelerate a STOCK GT on paper. No different than getting a GT and making it go faster than a Hellcat while spending far less, but like the EB, you'll be at near the limits of the stock internal motor. But seriously, re-read your comment because this forum is full of people who can easily get the more expensive model but enjoy modding their cars.

3. Or they had plenty of V8's in the past (like me) and want to try something different. There are plenty of folks here with awesome V8 builds so I think that it's well covered.

4. Or EB suits their driving profile. I don't street/drag race, nor do I speed excessively. I wanted a car that can corner well while dealing with road imperfections that can provide a burst of power when going up a highway on-ramp or passing cars. I don't really need a car that's almost 200lbs heavier up front and add another 100+lbs worth of weight (Whipple or similar). At this level, even a few seconds of mashing the throttle will get me well at dangerous speed level.

 

[Bull Run]

$35000 MSRP of today is comparable to the $12,106 base price of an 87 GT. And weights are about the same too - 3100 for the 87 and 3878 for the 2018.

Please list the cars of today that go 0-60 in 4.1-4.3 secs? And even lower if you get the GTPP and 10 speed.

I love the old Fox bodies too and they were great for their time. The modern Mustang is better in EVERY way.

CPI in 2018 is 248.991 whereas CPI in 1987 was 113.6. Therefore:

248.991/113.6 * $12,106 = $26,534.20 today's dollars, not $35,000. I'd also consider the difference in weight of 3,100 to 3,878 to be huge as well.

Don't get me wrong, I had an '85 LX with 5.0 and I'd chose '18 GT over it myself.

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