MAPerformance: Ultimate R&D Thread | Air, Fuel, & Turbo Upgrades

Discussion in 'I4 2.3L EcoBoost Engine / Mods: Bolt-ons, Exhaust,' started by MAPerformance, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Impulsed7

    Impulsed7 HPDE Champion

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    Rameybuilt

    Sorry I was just sharing my experience with the Precision turbo's and speculating on why they may have chosen it.
     
  2. Ron@cp-e

    [email protected] Well-Known Member

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    agree 100%

    gets pretty boring without a lot of posts and a good mix of forum members
     
  3. FreddyG

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    You're Welcome! :cheers:

    No Bromance here, just was a Nuclear Certified welder and can appreciate good welding when I see it........So, maybe a little Bromance! :D
     
  4. OP
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    MAPerformance

    MAPerformance Well-Known Member
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    100% Bromance welcomed here....
     
  5. OP
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    MAPerformance

    MAPerformance Well-Known Member
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    Ask away, I'll always reply to questions even if someone else answered them.

    The reason for going with a single scroll manifold was for two reasons.

    1. Cost effective to both us, and the customer. We originally intended to keep the twin scroll design as you can see on the picture below of our 3D Printed prototype. Unfortunately for us to proceed with that it would need to be cast, and we only do stainless steel casting, we refuse to do anything less. Example of a product we designed and cast in stainless is below.

    Casting in stainless works against us in time, we really want to get a turbo kit on the market for our customers asap. We would have to wait for a prototype which could take up to a month, then we would have to test it. If we need to make any changes that could take up to another month. Then final production run could be 1-2 months. We are ready to hit the track next month, we and our customers shouldn't have to wait that long. This also works against us in bringing an affordable turbo kit to the market. Casting cost much more to produce versus a high quality hand fabricated piece. Which leads me to reason #2.

    2. We are targeting stock block customers looking to make good, reliable, and AFFORDABLE power. Everyone has the option to build their engine, however most of our customer base is going to be someone on stock block. If we were to go with twin scroll on this size turbo, the reduction in spool time would honestly be minimal you wouldn't even notice. However fast spool is in mind, but we don't want INSANELY fast spool which again twin vs open scroll would hardly make a difference at this stage. Also, we wanted to leave the turbo options open for our customer for later down the line. There are more open scroll turbo's available on the market than twin scroll.

    Our turbo kit will also be designed to grow with the end user. If they start off on stock block then upgrade to a built engine later are are looking for more than 500whp, then they can upgrade to a bigger turbo. When you get in to the bigger turbo's, most aren't available in twin scroll T3, but rather T4 twin scroll which won't be needed.

    Now to touch on why we don't want insanely fast spooling turbo kit. Fast spool = fast torque, and hard hitting torque breaks engines. This is a known fact in the sport compact world, and it applies here as well. Our main intention for this turbo kit outside what is listed above, is to bring the torque and horsepower numbers into a more realistic range. Currently our EBM makes 330whp and 421wtq. That is a 91wtq difference, we want to get them a little closer together and to make HP/TQ for longer in the powerband. 421wtq is awesome, but it instantly drops off and crosses with the HP curve at the ~320ish mark @5252rpm. Then right after that crossing point the hp also drops with the torque. I would ideally like to see these cross and have the HP keep going up and the torque to plateau.

    In the end, twin scroll isn't going to hinder us from reaching our hp/tq goals and our ability to turn the EBM into a powerful, linear street car. It also allows us to hit the market with a high quality, versatile, affordable, and proven turbo kit.


    Here is our original twin scroll design:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    And here is a picture of our stainless cast EVO X manifold:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    I apologize in advance if I was rambling in this post. I have been coming down with something and not feeling 100%. On top of that I am crazy overloaded!

    Hope this clears things up and answers your questions!
     
  6. greg hazlett

    greg hazlett Well-Known Member

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    Well put and explained!
     
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  7. Impulsed7

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    You should probably use the term early spool to define where the turbo spools in the RPM range, and fast spool to define how quickly it builds boost after throttle actuation. Just to keep the verbage correct? Maybe? I don't know.
     
  8. boostedCO

    boostedCO Well-Known Member

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    :shrug:
     
  9. OP
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    MAPerformance

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    This is going to be one of the last things we design as we are really focused on the turbo kit, intercooler, and engine build at this time.

    I will post a picture of the design here in a few weeks!
     
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  10. OP
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    MAPerformance

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    #175 MAPerformance, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2015
    UPDATE 3/20/2015:

    First things first, please have a look at the first page if you are new to this thread. There are clickable links for the important updates so you don't have to dig through the thread to find the information you are looking for. If any of your questions aren't answered by any of my updates please feel free to post, pm, email, facebook message me, or call me!

    Alright guys/gals, this is going to be a huge picture dump so please be patient and wait for the page to load. I like to use big pictures so you all can zoom in and see details.

    Lets start off with the intercooler development, I know you guys are waiting for this based on my pre-order list alone! Which reminds me, if you guys are interested in pre-ordering our intercooler please email me directly so I can add you to the list. I will start accepting payment next week if everything goes smoothly. My email is [email protected]

    A couple pages back I posted the SW CAD drawing of what our billet end tank is going to look like. Here it is again;

    [​IMG]

    From there we need to do a 3D print of our cad design to test fit it to make sure everything is perfect before we move onto a solid prototype. I like to call our 3D prints "soft prototype" so if I refer to that in the future you will have an idea what I'm speaking of.

    Here are some quick pictures of our soft prototype end tanks.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    After we test fitted the pieces above we were able to make some small changes to the SW CAD drawing and start on the first set of Hard Prototype billet end tanks. Here are a few pictures:


    Here is the raw material being cut, this was a long process as it is a good hunk of metal!

    [​IMG]

    From there we roughed in the initial cuts, we have to cut one side first then flip it to cut the rest.

    [​IMG]
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    A little bit closer look.

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    Now that they are out of the CNC machine you can see how our 3D soft prototype has came to fruition.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I will put some pictures up soon as we get them welded up on a core and everything is fitted in our Jig. As I mentioned I will be contacting everybody that is interested in preordering our intercooler. Also, if you missed the original testing results you can find them HERE.



    Now lets move onto our turbo kit. The kit is complete and on the car, I will be tuning our kit over the next few days and will update you as soon as I have the results and the pricing will also be disclosed at the same time. For now, let me give you a break down of what our kit will be consisting of.

    -Manifold with 100% stainless construction. Schedule 10 mid tube, 1/2 flanges, tig welded, and provision for Turbosmart Comp-gate 40mm external wastegate
    -Configured for T3 Open Scroll turbos with 2.5" 4-bolt outlet
    -Downpipe with same connection options as our stock turbo downpipe (v-bands)
    -You will have an option of 5558, 5858, 5862, 6262, 6266 turbochargers. Ball Bearing or Journal Bearing. These are PRECISION turbochargers.
    -Turbosmart Comp-gate 40mm External Wastegate
    -Lower intercooler pipe to factory location intercoolers, with Turbosmart Vee Port Atmospheric BOV
    -Oil Feed and Return Line
    -Coolant Bypass Line
    -3.5" Intake with Green Filter USA filter, goes into the same location as our stock turbo intake
    -Optional PTP turbo blanket
    -Optional Downpipe Heat Wrap


    So far we believe our turbo kit is the only one on the market that utilizes an actual external wastegate. Which gives you better boost control, and gives you that wicked sound when the wastegate opens that I know you guys love. For those of you that don't love it, we will be offering an option to recirculate the external wastegate dumptube into the downpipe.

    We chose to go with the Journal Bearing 5858 CEA turbo for our testing. This is a good middle ground turbo, and should achieve exactly what we are looking for. Now, lets get to the pictures!

    Turbo in its new home.
    [​IMG]

    A look at the lower intercooler pipe from the drivers side.
    [​IMG]

    From the passenger side
    [​IMG]

    Downpipe and wastegate configuration
    [​IMG]

    A look from underneath, shows you how the external dump is setup
    [​IMG]

    Then a closer look at the wastegate, turbo, downpipe, and manifold
    [​IMG]

    3.5" Intake
    [​IMG]

    A look from the front with everything installed
    [​IMG]

    Look from the passenger side
    [​IMG]

    PTP Turbo Blanket installed
    [​IMG]

    Heat wrap, and the wastegate sneaking in there
    [​IMG]
    As mentioned I will be tuning the car over the next few days and will immediately get you guys updated as soon as I have some results. We will also use the beginning of next week to price out the kit, we are waiting just in case we need to make any changes.

    Now, we will be looking to make as much power as we can on the stock block. Once we have our results and we put a lot of miles on the turbo kit/stock block combination and we are comfortable with the power output and reliability, we will be dropping in a MAP shortblock. Not much besides teardown and inspection so far, but here are the pictures:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If anybody has any questions, please feel free to ask. We want conversation!

    Thank you,
    Adam Brunson
     
  11. bluestang50

    bluestang50 Well-Known Member

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    Awesome update, I can't wait to see the dyno numbers.
     
  12. NewSVO

    NewSVO Well-Known Member

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    So hold off on buying an aftermarket downpipe and CAI if we're going this route? Also, since I'm coming from big V8s and know nothing from each turbo type, could you explain which option is best or what or guide me somewhere where I can learn about it??
     
  13. Impulsed7

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    Why no ball bearing 5858?
     
  14. Juben

    Juben Well-Known Member

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    You guys have been doing some work. Looks fantastic so far! :headbang:
     
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  15. 15svo

    15svo Well-Known Member

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    I hope I can get the fmic and piping on before the track opens here so map and I can put up some numbers the fist time out!
     
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