LT5 in a ZLE - GT500 killer

[9secondko]

Yet, in MT Hot laps the 1LE was still faster than the PP2. Lightning Laps show the 350R behind both the ZL1 and ZLE. And the Z/28. But we all know there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.

The problem for Ford and the S550 chassis is all this magic hasn't trickled down to the GT level. If you want the best driving Mustang you need to pony up for the 350/r or GT500. Hell, you have to add camber bolts to even adjust the camber on a GT. Which is pretty ridiculous if you're buying the PP1 or PP2 'track package'. I got -2.5* in the front of my 1LE without having to add any parts.

hate to break it to you, but the GT doesn’t define the platform. It’s all business. And bring that the Mustang sells so well - it’s working. You want the best s550 experiences? You pay for them. Not exactly thrilled with that myself, but that’s good business.

The platforms shine when effort is put in. In these cases, the effort has been put in for the 1LE, the 350R, the zl1, the GT500, the ZL1 1LE, and the GT500 track pack.

The 350R whoops the 1LE and has worlds better ride quality. The 350 itself whoops the 1LE in most tests.

And the Gt500 whoops the ZL1 with ease.

The GT500 track pack likewise... well, let’s wait for the official word...

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[9secondko]

LOL

just about died.

 

[nastang87xx]

that was my point. In order for the alpha to truly handle, it had to leave no stone interned and the suspension is harsh. Rattle your ribs together harsh. the ZL1 1LE is everything the alpha could ever hope to be. GM didn’t care about how many would sell with it. They wanted to put those track numbers on a poster. And they SHOULD. The car is a monster. Truly great car. I’ve been a fan of the zl1 since before the 1LE. the ZL1 actually has a nice ride. The 1LE... the opposite of that. But it turns. Younger folks with money would enjoy the car simply due to its inherent prowess and would be willing to forgo the ride issues. It would be a bragging point. Someone who isn’t new to performance and was looking for a daily sports car most likely would not choose that trim.

If the gt500 track pack beats that with the nice ride it has, that’s a gigantic win in the s550 chassis column. Then, imagine If the 500 went that route on suspension... it would be unheard of levels of performance.

And when I said I'm not worthy, I meant it. I'm 32 years old and I'm very okay with my 350 in terms of ride over the ZL1 1LE even though I know a ZL1 1LE would dust me...WITH THE RIGHT DRIVER. My god that car is so hardcore. I drove one at autocross once, much less the track. Took off, clean. Bang second gear, clean. First corner, spun WAY out. You cannot drive a GT350 or even an SS 1LE in the same way you drive a ZL1 1LE. It takes patience, finesse, and smooth inputs. But inputs that are all 3 of those but quick and sophisticated touch without being jerky or hyper aggressive.

Personally I don't think the LT5 will end up in the ZL1 1LE. I think it'll push it out of a certain price point that GM won't accept plus the cost of sourcing a new transmission for that engine for a front engine, middle trans, rear wheel drive platform. But that's just my thinking. No, they can't just throw in the 8L90 like they did for the CTS-V. The 10L80 is in the Camaro, that's too many transmissions for one platform and you run thin on cost. So unless there's another 10Lxx out there that we don't know about...or a beefed up TR6060 that was already sourced, probably won't happen.

 

[mJolnir]

I'm also curious, why can't a 4200lb car be stellar on the track?

It can be stellar, like the z28 and the zl1 1le, but you need to go to the extemes for that and you end up with a car not that good for the street. Just because it has magnetic dampers does not mean you will not need stiffer springs and bars, huge sticky tires with very stiff sidewalls and sacrifice some nvh with stiffer bushings. just like the normal GT is a more comfortable car than the pp2 or the gt350.

Where are you getting your information? The two best sources we have for track ability are C&D Lightning Lap, and MT HotLaps. In the C&D LL reviews the PP2 is faster than the 1LE never mind the 350, in the MT HL the 350 is faster than the 1LE.

i havent seen any test pitting the GT350 to the SS 1le, C&D only tested the GT350R, As fo the pp2 vs ss 1le M/T posted tihs https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/ where it compares them in the same tests and the same tracks and the camaro ends up being faster.

 

[9secondko]

It can be stellar, like the z28 and the zl1 1le, but you need to go to the extemes for that and you end up with a car not that good for the street. Just because it has magnetic dampers does not mean you will not need stiffer springs and bars, huge sticky tires with very stiff sidewalls and sacrifice some nvh with stiffer bushings. just like the normal GT is a more comfortable car than the pp2 or the gt350.



i havent seen any test pitting the GT350 to the SS 1le, C&D only tested the GT350R, As fo the pp2 vs ss 1le M/T posted tihs https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/ where it compares them in the same tests and the same tracks and the camaro ends up being faster.

ford went waasay soft with the GT suspension. They thought more people just wanted a plush ride. Apparently, they were right. But then they figured they’d still offer a proper GT with the performance packs. Still soft, but a noticeable improvement. The pp2 is basically a traction upgrade.

none of the pp cars are actual 1LE competitors. Ford has a gt350 for track duty.
Sure, Ford can beef up the suspension in the PP, but then it would be too close to the 350.

GT vs SS. 350 vs 1LE. 500 vs zl1.

 

[millhouse]

It can be stellar

You should have stopped there.

The GT350R has already proven that DSSV dampers, solid bushings and terrible ride quality are not required for a world class handling car. By all accounts, the GT500 Carbon is right there with it...even with it's extra heft.

I'm sick and tired of all of the naysayers exclaiming...but 4200lbs! Do you not realize that the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE is a porker compared to nearly every sports car on the market yet still has great handling capability?

I'll say it again, weight is only one factor in the equation. Will it likely wear tires and brakes faster? Yes. It does not mean it won't be as capable (if not more) than lighter vehicles.

 

[Laststandard]

ford went waasay soft with the GT suspension. They thought more people just wanted a plush ride. Apparently, they were right. But then they figured they’d still offer a proper GT with the performance packs. Still soft, but a noticeable improvement. The pp2 is basically a traction upgrade.

none of the pp cars are actual 1LE competitors. Ford has a gt350 for track duty.
Sure, Ford can beef up the suspension in the PP, but then it would be too close to the 350.

GT vs SS. 350 vs 1LE. 500 vs zl1.

So you need to spend an extra 15-20k on a Ford to compete with GM. Got it.

 

[9secondko]

So you need to spend an extra 15-20k on a Ford to compete with GM. Got it.

Negative. Ford doesn't NEED to do that. But they can. so they do. GM can't. So they don't. People value the Mustang more. Plain and simple. If people weren't willing to pay the prices, Ford would cut them. but they are, so the prices stay. It's also a matter of platform. The Mustang platform is unique, so it's more expensive to make, versus the Alpha which amortized over various nameplates.

that's a nice car in your avatar though. Best Camaro design in history in my opinion. They shouldn't have touched it. It's a mystery to me why the sales never really took off. I can't imagine anything I would have changed about the car to improve it. Everything was right. Small and light, powerful, good suspension across the line, cheap, etc. The market is a funny thing. And those intangibles are really hard to get down just right.

Comehow, throughout history, Ford has seemed able to generally nail the market with the Mustang. they must have a secret cookbook with recipes only they know somewhere in a highly guarded vault.

 

[JonEcoyote]

So you need to spend an extra 15-20k on a Ford to compete with GM. Got it.

You Camaro guys sure are focused on price....Yes the Ford will cost more, but it'll also be worth more in several years, a LOT more. It's just a car more people want, it's really that simple.

Noone will even know what a SS 1LE is in 5-10 years aside from a few folks, the Shelby will bury it in resale value

 

[MaskedRacerX]

You Camaro guys sure are focused on price....

Overtime at McDonalds is really tough.

 

[JonEcoyote]

Overtime at McDonalds is really tough.

GM had a 1LE package in the 4th gen Camaro, guess what those are worth today, $3-4K, and what's a 93 Cobra go for these days? LOL

 

[shogun32]

resale value? What is this the Flip your Car channel?
Per NADA trade-in with 30k miles:

2017 SS1LE: 29.8/45 = 66% of original MSRP (with Magneride)
2017 GT350: 43/60.9 = 70% of original MSRP

Not a lot of difference between them.

A forum member here recently picked up a 1400 mile 2018 for 45k so in his case at least, the Shelby was depreciating at a significant (and higher than above) rate. Actually the production numbers for the SS/1LE could well be a less than the GT350.

Edit: updated numbers

 

[millhouse]

resale value? What is this the Flip your Car channel?
Per NADA trade-in with 30k miles:

2017 SS1LE: 29.8/45 = 66% of original MSRP (with Magneride)
2017 GT350: 43/65 = 66% of original MSRP

Not a lick of difference between them.
A forum member here recently picked up a 1400 mile 2018 for 45k so in his case at least, the Shelby was depreciating at a significant (and higher than above) rate. Actually the production numbers for the SS/1LE could well be a less than the GT350.

You might want to recheck your numbers. The 2017 GT350 had an MSRP of $56,495 not $65k.

Also, it's funny you picked 2017...as the GT350 was chosen for best resale value by nada.

https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-high-performance-car-2017/

On a side note, the camaro was recently named the least reliable car in america by CR.

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/11/c...-colorado-the-least-reliable-cars-in-america/

That's sure to help its resale.

 

[mJolnir]

You should have stopped there.

The GT350R has already proven that DSSV dampers, solid bushings and terrible ride quality are not required for a world class handling car. By all accounts, the GT500 Carbon is right there with it...even with it's extra heft.

I'm sick and tired of all of the naysayers exclaiming...but 4200lbs! Do you not realize that the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE is a porker compared to nearly every sports car on the market yet still has great handling capability?

I'll say it again, weight is only one factor in the equation. Will it likely wear tires and brakes faster? Yes. It does not mean it won't be as capable (if not more) than lighter vehicles.

This is my problem, just where do you get the notion that its right up there with the gt350r if the only real instrumented test there is for the gt500 is 1/4 mile runs, some guys butt dyno? you are making that up.

The zl1 1le its a terrible car for street driving it will hurt your kidneys, thats the price you have to pay for a pork like that to be quick at the track, and now you want to say that the even porkier gt500 will magically be a better track car and still be comfortable, come on man, since my fist comment i have been trying to explain to you it will need to have even more extreme suspension setup because its heavier. Hellcat red eye cant go around the corners but its comfortable, zl1 1le can go around corners faster than most but its uncomfortable, the gt500 will be like one of the two before or just fall in the middle and be mediocre.

Now since we know that track focused suspension setups arent good at the Drags, and we know the gt500 has an excellent performance in the 1/4 mile we can assume its not that good in the track, just like it was in 2014.

Now on to that depreciation comment, I dont care, that only means i would be able to afford it even earlier, beat the snot out of it at hpde, roll races, drag races, 1/2 mile and auto X, and not worry about it because its a cheap car.

 

[millhouse]

This is my problem, just where do you get the notion that its right up there with the gt350r if the only real instrumented test there is for the gt500 is 1/4 mile runs, some guys butt dyno? you are making that up.

The zl1 1le its a terrible car for street driving it will hurt your kidneys, thats the price you have to pay for a pork like that to be quick at the track, and now you want to say that the even porkier gt500 will magically be a better track car and still be comfortable, come on man, since my fist comment i have been trying to explain to you it will need to have even more extreme suspension setup because its heavier. Hellcat red eye cant go around the corners but its comfortable, zl1 1le can go around corners faster than most but its uncomfortable, the gt500 will be like one of the two before or just fall in the middle and be mediocre.

Now since we know that track focused suspension setups arent good at the Drags, and we know the gt500 has an excellent performance in the 1/4 mile we can assume its not that good in the track, just like it was in 2014.

Now on to that depreciation comment, I dont care, that only means i would be able to afford it even earlier, beat the snot out of it at hpde, roll races, drag races, 1/2 mile and auto X, and not worry about it because its a cheap car.

This entire post shows how you seem to be completely focused on a single aspect of a vehicle to attempt to diminish the GT500. You seem to think that because GM and Chrysler can’t do it that Ford can’t either. Do you not realize the gt500 is on an extremely capable chassis? Do you not realize the suspension has been revamped? Do you not realize the value of carbon fiber wheels? Do you not realize the benefit of a DCT? Do you not realize the benefit of better tires? Do you not realize the massive HP advantage the GT500 has? Do you not realize etc etc etc. The GT500 isn’t simply a gt350 with more horsepower.

It’s not just weight and suspension. Why you can’t see that is obvious.

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