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Let’s talk about return style fuel systems

illtal

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i'm sorry but None on the fuel pump capacity is used to transfer fuel from one side of the tank to the other. This is done on a siphon in the bottom of the stock bucket. if you mean the little hose on the top of the pump it is to fill the bucket. that's all. i'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding.
Lol

@Angrey has a pump on his passenger side saddle in addition to the siphon. Everyone knows how the factory setup works.

The holly kit which was mentioned above does use a pump in the passenger saddle to transfer fuel to the driver side saddle.

The world is big buddy. Keep learning.
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Angrey

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Lol

@Angrey has a pump on his passenger side saddle in addition to the siphon. Everyone knows how the factory setup works.

The holly kit which was mentioned above does use a pump in the passenger saddle to transfer fuel to the driver side saddle.

The world is big buddy. Keep learning.
Yup

There's no free lunches, especially in the world of physics. You can either pump or draw fuel from one side to the other (with an elevation in between) but it won't magically flow on it's own without some form of work applied to the system.

On the siphon system, that's accomplished with a venturi which takes flow from the main fuel pumps and draws the fuel slowly from the other side. That flow required to "power" the siphon is wasted flow from the fuel pumps. So if the fuel pumps can flow (without a siphon bleed) 500 l/h at 75 psi. And it bleeds roughly 40 liters/hour out the secondary siphon feed, then you're only getting 460 liters/hour out of your main pumps.

Pump sizing has multiple efficiency losses to consider, and it also complicates things given that manufacturers generally advertise pump flow rates at 3 bar (roughly 43.5 psi). Virtually no EFI system operates at 3 bar (I'm baffled why they picked that number, maybe it was because that's the closest round number in bar to typical N/A rail pressures, who knows).

But between pressure losses due to friction going to and from the tank (lines, fittings, filters, etc) and siphon losses mentioned above and pump efficiency losses in having to send fuel at higher pressures (for boosted applications) a pair of 525 pumps actually flows significantly less than the brochure rating (perfect at 3 bar with no other losses).

Aside from being a dead loss for the pumps, the siphon system is pretty puny and doesn't really balance the tanks very quickly. This is only a REAL problem for guys with a lot of lateral grip and long, extended left hand turns.

And I no longer have a siphon, I actually repurposed the siphon hose/tubing for my low pressure lift pumps on the passenger side (with a nifty fitting adapter). Which is probably why I was able to rip 1100 wheel on a pair of DW440's with no stress. Not sure what the limit is to them without boosting (or if I'll ever need to find out) but I always have a voltage booster option if I run out of primary pumps.
 

Zrussian13

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Lol

@Angrey has a pump on his passenger side saddle in addition to the siphon. Everyone knows how the factory setup works.

The holly kit which was mentioned above does use a pump in the passenger saddle to transfer fuel to the driver side saddle.

The world is big buddy. Keep learning.
Yup

There's no free lunches, especially in the world of physics. You can either pump or draw fuel from one side to the other (with an elevation in between) but it won't magically flow on it's own without some form of work applied to the system.

On the siphon system, that's accomplished with a venturi which takes flow from the main fuel pumps and draws the fuel slowly from the other side. That flow required to "power" the siphon is wasted flow from the fuel pumps. So if the fuel pumps can flow (without a siphon bleed) 500 l/h at 75 psi. And it bleeds roughly 40 liters/hour out the secondary siphon feed, then you're only getting 460 liters/hour out of your main pumps.

Pump sizing has multiple efficiency losses to consider, and it also complicates things given that manufacturers generally advertise pump flow rates at 3 bar (roughly 43.5 psi). Virtually no EFI system operates at 3 bar (I'm baffled why they picked that number, maybe it was because that's the closest round number in bar to typical N/A rail pressures, who knows).

But between pressure losses due to friction going to and from the tank (lines, fittings, filters, etc) and siphon losses mentioned above and pump efficiency losses in having to send fuel at higher pressures (for boosted applications) a pair of 525 pumps actually flows significantly less than the brochure rating (perfect at 3 bar with no other losses).

Aside from being a dead loss for the pumps, the siphon system is pretty puny and doesn't really balance the tanks very quickly. This is only a REAL problem for guys with a lot of lateral grip and long, extended left hand turns.

And I no longer have a siphon, I actually repurposed the siphon hose/tubing for my low pressure lift pumps on the passenger side (with a nifty fitting adapter). Which is probably why I was able to rip 1100 wheel on a pair of DW440's with no stress. Not sure what the limit is to them without boosting (or if I'll ever need to find out) but I always have a voltage booster option if I run out of primary pumps.
What?! Are you guys saying Jackson is wrong? 🤣
 

LSchicago

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I went with a Jackal JR kit from BBR. twin 525 Hellcat pumps, PTFE lines, and DW rails. Plenty more than enough fuel.
 

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dukecrazy

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I went with a Jackal JR kit from BBR. twin 525 Hellcat pumps, PTFE lines, and DW rails. Plenty more than enough fuel.
The jackal kit you mentioned doesn't have any info on their website that I can see other than the price of the system itself.

I'm looking into picking up a fuel system but my preference is to maintain a stock like fuel bucket. I know that takes out the popular brands(divisionx and fore) unless I buy a fuel hat/bucket separately(but I really don't want to do that). I'm not trying to be one of the 4 digit guys but I do want to be able to run E85 and 1-2 sizes smaller pulley. I really like the VMP fuel system and it seems more than adequate for my needs. However, I still like to know my available options. I've looked at the Arcane kit as well but are those the main 2 systems(VMP and Arcane) that retain a stock like fuel hat/bucket?
 
OP
OP

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The jackal kit you mentioned doesn't have any info on their website that I can see other than the price of the system itself.

I'm looking into picking up a fuel system but my preference is to maintain a stock like fuel bucket. I know that takes out the popular brands(divisionx and fore) unless I buy a fuel hat/bucket separately(but I really don't want to do that). I'm not trying to be one of the 4 digit guys but I do want to be able to run E85 and 1-2 sizes smaller pulley. I really like the VMP fuel system and it seems more than adequate for my needs. However, I still like to know my available options. I've looked at the Arcane kit as well but are those the main 2 systems(VMP and Arcane) that retain a stock like fuel hat/bucket?
Without piecing together your own system those were the two front runners I came across that maintain an OEM style bucket..

I elected to go with the Arcane system based on user feedback and offerings. As someone who wanted something very plug and play I liked that the arcane setup allowed for an option for them to assemble the pumps and wiring in the hat. Once it arrives I’ll provide some additional input and try to capture any learnings during the install.
 

dukecrazy

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Without piecing together your own system those were the two front runners I came across that maintain an OEM style bucket..

I elected to go with the Arcane system based on user feedback and offerings. As someone who wanted something very plug and play I liked that the arcane setup allowed for an option for them to assemble the pumps and wiring in the hat. Once it arrives I’ll provide some additional input and try to capture any learnings during the install.
It's really a toss up between the 2 systems for me because, for one, I like them both so I don't think either would be a bad choice. Two, they both can come with the fuel hat/bucket assembled for a drop in install. I did watch the install video of the VMP system and it seemed really easy.
 
OP
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It's really a toss up between the 2 systems for me because, for one, I like them both so I don't think either would be a bad choice. Two, they both can come with the fuel hat/bucket assembled for a drop in install. I did watch the install video of the VMP system and it seemed really easy.
That VMP video makes it look very straightforward for sure. I think any of the complete kits are likely to be similar so really just choose the one that has the pumps, hat, rail (if applicable), and regulator setup you desire.
 

LSchicago

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I got my system with rails, ptfe lines, and 525 pumps for $1,458 in November 2020. They are $500 more now.
 

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dukecrazy

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What are some thoughts on the different options for aftermarket fuel rails? Are they that much different from one another or are all pretty much the same with just slight variations?
 
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My fuel system will be in hand sometime within the next week.

Can anyone help me interpret this chart regarding the use of the OEM HPFP feed and FRPS? Is this insinuating that I have nothing to do for the HPFP? Simply run my feed line to the rail and then from the rail to the regulator? Seems simple enough but want to make sure I’m not overlooking something dumb.

5A6B5C25-D9EE-45E1-BD6C-2C456D26C932.jpeg
 
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illtal

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My fuel system will be in hand sometime within the next week.

Can anyone help me interpret this chart regarding the use of the OEM HPFP feed and FRPS? Is this insinuating that I have nothing to do for the HPFP? Simply run my feed line to the rail and then from the rail to the regulator? Seems simple enough but want to make sure I’m not overlooking something dumb.

Broken pic
 

Angrey

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That's all low pressure side. It even has a note on the bottom left "18+ uses OEM HPFP Feed and FPRS."

I think @engineermike did extensive testing on how much the high pressure side does or doesn't contribute. I would think you can keep the HP side consistent and manage all the new load with the port injection/low pressure side of things. Whether that's optimal or not, I think Mike can weigh in.
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