Let’s talk about return style fuel systems

[wazslow]

Not LUND. They want you too but 2k worth of fuel system for a 700 rwhp E85 setup.

We know you NOW hate Lund. Get over it, move on. I'm sure tuning your NA 11 sec car isn't their priority.

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[WildHorse]

I'm sure tuning your NA 11 sec car isn't their priority.

Thank Crist for that, cause if you wanna go FAST na.. LUND don't cut it.

 

[Cory S]

Not LUND. They want you too but 2k worth of fuel system for a 700 rwhp E85 setup.

That’s when you tell them you have it. . They will never know.

 

[WildHorse]

That’s when you tell them you have it. . They will never know.

 

[WildHorse]

Anyways, injectors are the key. More injector. More injector. More injector. Stock fuel pump (or whatever flavor pump you enjoy) & boost-a-pump is more than capable.

 

[Angrey]

Anyways, injectors are the key. More injector. More injector. More injector. Stock fuel pump (or whatever flavor pump you enjoy) & boost-a-pump is more than capable.

It depends. Buddy of mine is going through it right now with oversized injectors and at idle, he's way rich. Tuner is reluctant to shorten past Injector Dynamics floor limits and so he's way rich at idle. Not the end of the world, but if you sit for long periods of time dumping fuel, it can wash the cylinders down and it cuts the oil badly.

I don't want to buy/upgrade injectors when/if I ever upgrade either but sometimes you can go too big on the injector. I don't know if other tuners are less apprehensive about choking pulse width below what ID allows.

 

[Cory S]

It depends. Buddy of mine is going through it right now with oversized injectors and at idle, he's way rich. Tuner is reluctant to shorten past Injector Dynamics floor limits and so he's way rich at idle. Not the end of the world, but if you sit for long periods of time dumping fuel, it can wash the cylinders down and it cuts the oil badly.

I don't want to buy/upgrade injectors when/if I ever upgrade either but sometimes you can go too big on the injector. I don't know if other tuners are less apprehensive about choking pulse width below what ID allows.

Most people go too big on everything.

 

[illtal]

The DI cars car run big injectors

 

[mustangflanagan]

So is there a system out there fo a 2018 that supports big power,doesn't have to worry about fuel heat, and low fuel that would be good for a daily and not a dedicated drag car?

 

[LethalPerformance]

So is there a system out there fo a 2018 that supports big power,doesn't have to worry about fuel heat, and low fuel that would be good for a daily and not a dedicated drag car?

I ran our triple pump system on our 2018 GT with the 3.0L Whipple on it on E85. Ran all 3 pumps full time too with no hobbs switch. The car was driven on the street and drag strip often. Never had an issue with fuel heating up or low fuel.

Feel free to reach out if there's anything we can help you with.

 

[mustangflanagan]

That's my setup except on pump gas right now.. so there was no issues going into boost with less than half tank in car?

 

[LethalPerformance]

That's my setup except on pump gas right now.. so there was no issues going into boost with less than half tank in car?

I went 8's multiple times with my best being 8.64@157 with less than a 1/4 tank of gas. Although I do recommend running more than 1/4 tank of fuel if you're going to beat on the car I'm still proof that the system works with less than that.

 

[andrewtac]

I went 8's multiple times with my best being 8.64@157 with less than a 1/4 tank of gas. Although I do recommend running more than 1/4 tank of fuel if you're going to beat on the car I'm still proof that the system works with less than that.

I have heard about the issue of less than 1/2 a tank, but have numerous hits at less than 1/2 a tank with no issues. I don't race around corners though.

 

[illtal]

So is there a system out there fo a 2018 that supports big power,doesn't have to worry about fuel heat, and low fuel that would be good for a daily and not a dedicated drag car?

Fuel heating isn't a problem on E-85 it seems. It just isn't an elegant system. The all of them will work fine. If you want elegance and low power consumption you spend more money.

 

[Angrey]

So is there a system out there fo a 2018 that supports big power,doesn't have to worry about fuel heat, and low fuel that would be good for a daily and not a dedicated drag car?

The simplest setup is a surge tank. Eliminates the whole challenge of pump sizing/fitting in bucket/hat area, eliminates starvation and slosh concerns, etc. Problem is, there's no mounting solution under the car and it involves losing trunk space and having pressurized fuel components inside the firewall/cabin.

The Radium hat maintains somewhat of a mini surge tank condition where it has a one way bladder valve at the bottom that allows fuel in but not out (or over the top). But I'm pretty sure it doesn't allow more than 3 pumps (although it can accommodate the BKS-1000 pump).

I put together (at retail prices) a true variable system with a return that's capable of 1200 for about the same price as the high end triple pump system. I spoke with virtually everyone in the industry (Fuelab, Fore, Radium, Deatschworks, Aeromotive). Fuelab put together a 1200 hp system (single brushless) that fits in the saddle tank a decade ago, but no one bought it. At the time I spoke with them they weren't interested in investing the R/D to replicate the product for the S550. I think they might be changing. Aeromotive was intrigued but said they ran into similar issues with siphon system for the vette crowd so they weren't really interested in developing a big in tank solution, they were sticking with in-line and generic setups.

The Radium hat, Brushless pumps+controllers (DW, Fuelab, BKS, etc), electronic regulator, typical feed line and repurpose the OE line to a return ends up costing about the same price as the top of the line triple pump setup. Granted the triple pump can flow more, but it's overkill for most people and the brushless system can be boosted (reliably) so it's kinda a tweener between the triple and double pump systems, but with room to grow beyond the triple for about $550 in boosters.

Point is, at one point every small tool on the market was brush motor and brushless motors and lithium batteries basically pushed everything to brushless. Now only the cheap crap is brush style. I personally think we were on a path to eventually featuring brushless fuel pump setups to be the common standard, but who knows now with all that's going on with electrics and PCM encryption. There may not be a big enough market or the continued growth for the industry to really move to brushless pumps.

The typical brush style setups on the market work. They're just not optimal and they leave some things to be desired. I'm not risking a fuel starvation issue on low fuel (regardless of how many anecdotal examples others provide). It's like saying "I smash randoms from the bar with no condom all the time and I haven't gotten HIV." I've spent too much on my motor to risk it. There's also good reason why most tuners warn about flogging the car at low fuel levels. It's not just boogie man concerns.

Many of the other issues are admittedly low(er) concern, heat in the system (which reduces your knock resistance, increases chemical attack on poly components), stress on the electrical system, pump durability, etc. Most of that is admittedly obscure risks, but I've had brush style pumps crap out on me. I know others that have had them crap out. It's another starvation risk (and cost and frustration of replacing them).

Again, if you're making less than 1000 rwhp and you're not worried about long trips or willing to drive like an old woman when the fuel is less than 1/2 tank, the simplest answer is just buy a double pump setup and be done with it.

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