Last year for V8 2024 (and Mach-E discussion) via Ford Performance conference call

[Bikeman315]

I think you are giving her a little too much credit.

My eight-year-old son is smarter than that three watt bulb.

OK, enough politics......
And by the way your 8 year old son is probably, make that definitely, smarter than at least half of Washington DC. OK, I'm done now.

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[Bikeman315]

By the way I cannot seem to find any sales my model/engine for the S550. Does anyone have those numbers? Thanks.

 

[analogman]

By 2024 the V8 engine will not meet emission standards with the “green new deal”. Ford doesn’t have or the money to make them compliant at this time.

Ford certainly does ‘have’ the money to make an emissions-compliant V8 engine. They just don’t want to spend it.

My own view of what’s happening at Ford (and confirmed by a friend who’s a retired Ford senior executive) is that the Ford family wants out. They want to sell the company and be done with it. Other than Bill Jr., the rest of the family doesn’t have the same commitment to being in the car business that previous generations did.

The only way the Ford family can get out is by selling the company to another car company (they certainly can’t sell much stock on the open market without raising alarms). All of Ford’s recent seemingly stupid moves are primping the company for sale, most likely to VW or BMW.

BMW would like to add trucks to their car line. VW needs a way to rebrand themselves after the dieselgate fiasco. Both of those companies have their own cars but need trucks.

To make Ford more attractive as an acquisition candidate, they’ve focused on maximizing profits even at the expense of market share. Eliminated their car line from the U.S. market. What BMW and VW want most from Ford is the F150, their most profitable product. Hackett has said he’d be happy selling just trucks.

It maximizes value for the Ford family if they really do sell out. Acquisitions usually happen at a premium to the market price. I’ve heard they would prefer to sell to BMW as another ‘family owned’ business, but having VW as another bidder is the way to get the highest price (and VW’s recent investment keeps them close).

The Mustang is irrelevant in this process. It’s sales are a small fraction of Ford’s total volume, and I don’t know how much either BMW or VW care about keeping it. What Mustang owners want doesn’t matter at all to Ford. It only still exists because it’s incrementally profitable (though not as much as the F150), because it’s a relatively small annoyance to them, and because there are still some enthusiasts left at Ford working on it. Though, if it wasn’t for them using the Mustang name on the Mach-E, I don’t know how long it would last.

It might work out for them if they actually sell out to BMW or VW. Or, if gas prices spike (for any one of a number of reasons) and people stop buying trucks and SUVs and want cars again, Ford could be screwed. Either way, I think we should enjoy our Mustangs now, because I don’t think it has a long future in V8 IC form.

 

[shogun32]

this is going to leave a mark
https://news.yahoo.com/ford-recalls-more-500-000-130001977.html

If you look at quarterly sales of all vehicles, Ford cars are no where near the top and selling at a fraction of their Japanese counterparts. One could conclude that Ford lost the car war, and badly.
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/#quarterlysales

 

[analogman]

the “green new deal”

I’m all for a cleaner environment and combatting global warming. After all, this is the only planet we have, so not killing it (and ourselves) with rising temperature and sea levels is a very good idea.

But the irony is that ‘electric cars’ are not “the” answer. The real solution is to change how electricity is generated. Otherwise, EVs are only as ‘clean’ as whatever energy source was used to generate the electricity:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/

“Electricity” is not a *source* of energy (unless you’re going to try and capture lightening). It doesn’t come out of a hole in the ground. It’s a way of transmitting or storing energy. But something else must be used to generate the electricity in the first place.

Ideally that would be something renewable and clean, like solar, wind, or tidal. But the unpleasant reality is that in the U.S. right now, about 2/3 of electricity is still generated by fossil fuels, and another 20% from nuclear:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

An EV is not honestly “no emissions” (snarky bumper stickers notwithstanding). They are *remote* emissions vehicles. The emissions just come from the plant that was used to generate the electricity in the first place.

It’s different if you live truly off the grid and generate all your own electricity with photovoltaic panels, or live in Oregon that gets 76% of its electricity from hydro. But in most of the country, ‘electric’ cars are really 85% fossil fuel or nuclear powered.

It’s even more acute if you live in one of the 18 states that uses coal as its primary energy source for generating electricity, or one of the 16 states that uses natural gas as the primary energy source for electric power generation:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=37034

If we really want to save the planet - and ourselves - then the answer is to elect leaders who have the brains, courage, and integrity to make the hard, expensive, and politically unpopular decisions to create a renewable energy grid.

Otherwise, ‘electric’ cars are often just a marketing ploy that make naive people think they’re ‘saving the planet’ (again excepting if you live off the grid or in Oregon). Some pseudo-green hypocrites get very mad when I point out these facts, but then, many people prefer a pleasant fantasy to a harsh reality. Anger seems to be a common reaction to having one’s bubble burst.

 

[shogun32]

If we really want to save the planet - and ourselves

we need to stop doing this kind of stupid
https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/emissions-soar-permian-flaring-frenzy-breaks-new-records
There's been similar articles for a few years now.

 

[mustang1]

we need to stop doing this kind of stupid
https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/emissions-soar-permian-flaring-frenzy-breaks-new-records
There's been similar articles for a few years now.

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for (the V8 engine) drops to zero

 

[Jimmy Dean]

I’m all for a cleaner environment and combatting global warming. After all, this is the only planet we have, so not killing it (and ourselves) with rising temperature and sea levels is a very good idea.

But the irony is that ‘electric cars’ are not “the” answer. The real solution is to change how electricity is generated. Otherwise, EVs are only as ‘clean’ as whatever energy source was used to generate the electricity:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/

“Electricity” is not a *source* of energy (unless you’re going to try and capture lightening). It doesn’t come out of a hole in the ground. It’s a way of transmitting or storing energy. But something else must be used to generate the electricity in the first place.

Ideally that would be something renewable and clean, like solar, wind, or tidal. But the unpleasant reality is that in the U.S. right now, about 2/3 of electricity is still generated by fossil fuels, and another 20% from nuclear:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

An EV is not honestly “no emissions” (snarky bumper stickers notwithstanding). They are *remote* emissions vehicles. The emissions just come from the plant that was used to generate the electricity in the first place.

It’s different if you live truly off the grid and generate all your own electricity with photovoltaic panels, or live in Oregon that gets 76% of its electricity from hydro. But in most of the country, ‘electric’ cars are really 85% fossil fuel or nuclear powered.

It’s even more acute if you live in one of the 18 states that uses coal as its primary energy source for generating electricity, or one of the 16 states that uses natural gas as the primary energy source for electric power generation:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=37034

If we really want to save the planet - and ourselves - then the answer is to elect leaders who have the brains, courage, and integrity to make the hard, expensive, and politically unpopular decisions to create a renewable energy grid.

Otherwise, ‘electric’ cars are often just a marketing ploy that make naive people think they’re ‘saving the planet’ (again excepting if you live off the grid or in Oregon). Some pseudo-green hypocrites get very mad when I point out these facts, but then, many people prefer a pleasant fantasy to a harsh reality. Anger seems to be a common reaction to having one’s bubble burst.

You act like there is something wrong with using nuclear as a primary electrical generation fuel. When it is, in total, the cleanest, safest, most reliable, and environmentally friendly scalable power generation type to date.

 

[shogun32]

environmentally friendly scalable power generation type to date.

except for the wee problem of spent-fuel storage/reprocessing and that the lifespan of most of the plants out there has been extended by decades past their original cert life. And most(?) of the plants are fully dependent on a functioning grid to keep their spent fuel pools and reactors cool after shutdown lest we have Fukushima's all over the country with rather unhealthy results...

 

[Bikeman315]

except for the wee problem of spent-fuel storage/reprocessing and that the lifespan of most of the plants out there has been extended by decades past their original cert life. And most(?) of the plants are fully dependent on a functioning grid to keep their spent fuel pools and reactors cool after shutdown lest we have Fukushima's all over the country with rather unhealthy results...

Yes I agree. Nuclear had its time. That's past now. Do we really need a hacked nuclear reactor. And please do not say it couldn't happen. Just look at New Orleans.

But back to the V8!
Please post all political/environmental thoughts and comments on the Off Topic forum so that this thread does not get shut down. Thanks.

 

[Copperhead73]

Yeah, back to a point I made early in the thread, regrettably, since it seemed to derail it. Whether a good idea or bad idea, the Green New Deal isn't law...and I was pointing to that fact stating that I didn't believe anyone who spoke for Ford would list it as a reason they had to get rid of the V8.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

Yes I agree. Nuclear had its time. That's past now. Do we really need a hacked nuclear reactor. And please do not say it couldn't happen. Just look at New Orleans.

But back to the V8!
Please post all political/environmental thoughts and comments on the Off Topic forum so that this thread does not get shut down. Thanks.

what does NOLA have to do with this? Neither Riverbend nor Waterford have been compromised.

Using Breeder reactors there is very little spent fuel at all, much less storage concerns as there is so little of it. The controls tech that is available for a new nuc plant is ridiculously amazing. I should know, I'm in that field, even though the majority of the work I do is for refineries and chemical plants.

Also, reactors can work 24 hours/day, rain, sleet, snow, drought, high winds, no winds. And is completely and perfectly scalable. It is also very power dense, requiring very little space for the amount of power it can produce.

Onto the V8, I fully expect it is in the last decade or 2 of life for non-commercial or enthusiast circles (i.e. small production track only cars). It'll be a sad day to see them go, hopefully they are not replaced with some anemic 0-60 eventually designs. Which they shouldn't be as there are some completely bad ass small motors and electrics out there or coming soon. I have every intention of filling my garage with as many newer V8s as I can get my hands on in the next few years, including a few long blocks for coyote swaps into things like the new Bronco.

 

[Sig556]

It will be a sad day for all of us V8 lovers.


Honestly this is more about $$$ than politics (which we are not discussing here). If the beancounters at Ford can justify keeping the V8 then I'm sure the remaining car folks will push for it to continue. The V8 is not dead, it is just slowly riding off into the sunset.


I understand what you are saying but our "old" way of life has already ceased to exist. It's called change. We can resist it, we can dislike it, but we cannot change it.

Ira, I agree with you and change has come to us "Big Time" I embrace the future and learn about the electronics that run our world. I just miss putting a car together and getting it running without hooking up a laptop. As a side note the younger engineers are developing engines that are better and more fuel efficient than the dinosaurs of my time. This, my friend, as you know is called progress and the future. The V8 is like the Old Solider it will just fade away.

 

[Briebee72]

There are literally millions of used, V8 powered performance cars for sale now and they will continue to be for sale until long after you and I are dead

You sure about that? people treat cars like crap just look around daily. you hardly see a car older than 10 years on the road. And also performance cars go fast... hell the new corvette isn't even for sale yet and there have already been 6 wrecked. People get behind the wheel and the numbers of good cars on the road go down quick.

 

[Hack]

You sure about that? people treat cars like crap just look around daily. you hardly see a car older than 10 years on the road. And also performance cars go fast... hell the new corvette isn't even for sale yet and there have already been 6 wrecked. People get behind the wheel and the numbers of good cars on the road go down quick.

The average age of cars on the road is 11.8 years right now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/06/28/average-vehicle-age-ihs-markit/1593764001/

And I bet especially in northern climates and the rust belt the older vehicles tend to be "special" or sporty cars that include a higher percentage of V8s.

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