Just used Boostane - felt a nice difference in stock GT350R

[Red65]

Normally that would be true 10 years ago, but 93 isn’t the same as it used to be very often. Even on 93, the PCM is making timing adjustments and sampling @ 60-80hz. Adaptive learning will absolutely give a higher spark advance average with 2-3 octane numbers over 93 or so.

Right, but if it’s already not knocking and under the same ideal conditions on 93, how does it tell the difference between 93 and a higher octane. That’s what I’m not understanding.

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[Cory S]

how does it tell the difference between 93 and a higher octane. That’s what I’m not understanding.

Sampling. Knock/spark adder.

 

[Red65]

Sampling. Knock/spark adder.

Would that not mean that 93 has detonation on the stock calibration, because if so then it would make sense that higher octane fuel allows the timing to be advanced even further. But from what I’ve seen, there doesn’t seem to be any difference in total timing between 93 and higher octane fuel. Ultimately, test have been done using higher octane fuel than 93 on high-performance cars with the same ECU capabilities as ours, And every time it shows no change in power.

 

[K4fxd]

But from what I’ve seen, there doesn’t seem to be any difference in total timing between 93 and higher octane fuel. Ultimately, test have been done using higher octane fuel than 93 on high-performance cars with the same ECU capabilities as ours, And every time it shows no change in power.

It's because they don't have 11 and 12 to 1 compression like the mustangs.

 

[Red65]

]

It's because they don't have 11 and 12 to 1 compression like the mustangs.

static compression is not the sole determinant of what octane fuel you need to run. This has been known for a while

 

[K4fxd]

tatic compression is not the sole determinant of what octane fuel you need to run. This has been known for a while

You can bleed off cylinder pressure with the VVT and reduced spark or you can use higher octane fuel. Ford's stock tune rides the knock sensors. With higher octane fuel you get max advance throughout the RPM range.

 

[TrackMustang]

Not if he was using bad fuel causing the knock sensors to pull timing.

Could very well run harder with the Boostane.

He said it now chirps 1st and 2nd. I’m pretty sure ecoboosts do that and a standard GT does more than that.

My point being that perhaps the OPs driving it harder because he’s looking for it to be stronger.

 

[NHMustangGuy]

from what I have read Boostane does have MMT, but it does not bond and gum up like other products do. Lots of information and testing on the product.

 

[EFI]

So you’re suggesting that stock Gt350’s run naturally with the knock sensors constantly regarding timing on the factory calibration?

No, they run the base timing table with a few degrees added or subtracted. But it's not using the full 10* swing that it *can* use.

My understanding is the calibration has a target total timing with the ability to advance under ideal conditions (no detonation knock, low CHT’s/IAT’s etc) or retard under bad conditions (Vice versa). But if the engine is already not knocking on 93 and it’s target timing is 30* with a +6* (for example), there’s no way for it to add more timing just from adding higher octane fuel. From what I’ve seen, there is no total timing difference between 93 and higher octane fuel on the factory calibration

please correct me if I’m wrong

If the timing on 93 is 30* (24 base + 6 added) then there's room for up to 34* (24 base + 10 added), thus theoretically it *can* make more power. Doesn't always mean more power, but it can. If the ECU runs full +10* on 93, then yes I agree with you that adding a higher octane fuel won't do anything as there's no more timing to be had without a tune. But if the ECU doesn't run the full add table, then there's room to grow. It's very rare that it adds more than a few degrees especially at WOT. Around town yeah the timing swings wildly, but at WOT it's very stable.

 

[NHMustangGuy]

OK, so here's the deal, a VooDoo is not a TQ-heavy car, it's a screamer. So, it's spinning the tires at like 7K. You have to hammer on the car to get it to spin the tires. It also had traction control ON, not off, if I had it off I would rip the tires like crazy shifting 1,2,3.....

 

[EFI]

Right, but if it’s already not knocking and under the same ideal conditions on 93, how does it tell the difference between 93 and a higher octane. That’s what I’m not understanding.

It keeps adding timing and when it senses knock it stops adding. With 93 that might be at base + 5* for example. Once it gets to the +5* and sees some knock it stops adding. But with 100 when it gets to base +5* it won't see any knock, thus it will go to +6* and it won't see knock once again so it will go up to +7* and so on up to +10*.

It's the same as with a tuner doing a dyno tune. The tuner will add timing until it stops making power or it starts knocking and that will be the upper limit. With 100 they will be able to add more timing than with 93 before it starts knocking. It's trial and error, but in this case done by the computer not the tuner.

 

[NHMustangGuy]

Your Grammar needs to be recalibrated

 

[NHMustangGuy]

Correct

 

[Red65]

It keeps adding timing and when it senses knock it stops adding. With 93 that might be at base + 5* for example. Once it gets to the +5* and sees some knock it stops adding. But with 100 when it gets to base +5* it won't see any knock, thus it will go to +6* and it won't see knock once again so it will go up to +7* and so on up to +10*.

It's the same as with a tuner doing a dyno tune. The tuner will add timing until it stops making power or it starts knocking and that will be the upper limit. With 100 they will be able to add more timing than with 93 before it starts knocking. It's trial and error, but in this case done by the computer not the tuner.

I understand how you can push the timing farther with the higher octane fuel. It’s the reason why E85 can pretty sweet as a readily available pump fuel since it has a lot more safety headroom and power capability from the timing increase over 93. I’m assuming now that when it senses detonation after adding a number of degrees over the base timing, it’s not counting that as “knock retard” on the software. When I look at my datalogs on 93, it’s pushing about 36 total degrees (30* base +6* of advance) and I’m seeing 0* of knock retard across the graph. Seeing that tells me that it’s not detonating whatsoever. But if it’s sensing detonation at +7 and higher degrees of advance and keeping it at +6 but it’s just not counting on the knock retard graph, then I can understand that the car picks up some power with the higher octane fuel. It’s just really counterintuitive to me if I’m understanding that right.

 

[Red65]

No, they run the base timing table with a few degrees added or subtracted. But it's not using the full 10* swing that it *can* use.



If the timing on 93 is 30* (24 base + 6 added) then there's room for up to 34* (24 base + 10 added), thus theoretically it *can* make more power. Doesn't always mean more power, but it can. If the ECU runs full +10* on 93, then yes I agree with you that adding a higher octane fuel won't do anything as there's no more timing to be had without a tune. But if the ECU doesn't run the full add table, then there's room to grow. It's very rare that it adds more than a few degrees especially at WOT. Around town yeah the timing swings wildly, but at WOT it's very stable.

In a very long winded way on my part, this is pretty much what I was wanting to say (or trying to at least lol). I’m not used to seeing any sort of knock retard on a factory calibration because they tend to keep it on the conservative side for obvious reasons. Like you said, if it’s giving it the full timing on 93 (say 34*), then it running 34* on a higher octane fuel doesn’t make anymore power than it did on 93*. If anything a smidge less but probably not where you would notice it.

Admittedly I’m lacking knowledge on the newer adaptive learning systems which is why I had these questions, and I definitely appreciate the answers.

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