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Just How Important Is the Traction Control?

okfoz

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My 2016 RS3 would be virtually impossible to drive without Traction Control, stability control etc... Even at 80Mph I can lose traction on dry pavement in "Snow" mode If I am not super conscious of my driving, any lapse of concentration can be detrimental. How traction control works is kind of like a reverse of ABS, the computer senses that there is wheel spin and it detunes the engine, or it could apply brakes, reduce throttle etc.
The Stability control uses accelerometers, and compares it to steering wheel angle, and several other things to correct a bad situation, I imagine there are several ways to do this, but many cars computers can apply brakes to individual wheels to correct driver errors.
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Norm Peterson

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... but many cars computers can apply brakes to individual wheels to correct driver errors.
All stability control systems (and I imagine most TC systems) can apply the brakes on individual wheels. That's how they accomplish their corrections to understeer, oversteer, and wheelspin.


What you said about your RS3 tells me that its tune has the tip-in response dialed up way too high for the available power and tire grip. Big power with too much throttle response = too much power coming in too soon = tricky to drive.


Norm
 

kz

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My 2016 RS3 would be virtually impossible to drive without Traction Control, stability control etc... Even at 80Mph I can lose traction on dry pavement in "Snow" mode If I am not super conscious of my driving, any lapse of concentration can be detrimental.
You're going to spin the wheels or the car will over/understeer in the corner ? Most high powered cars will spin the wheels if someone mashes the throttle and RWD cars will have throttle oversteer in that case although not sure if it's even possible in Mustang Snow mode (which - if you're point was to brag about RS3, it seems like somebody really messed up it's throttle mapping for snow mode in that car).
If your car is inherently unstable, it's just terribly designed from vehicle dynamics point of view and uses stability control as a band aid - which hard to believe and is not the case in the Mustang. With everything off, this car is very possible to drive, in fact I drive it like this every day and I am not terribly focused on what I am doing (doesn't mean I am not paying attention).
 

DougS550

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Hi,

I know this question sounds like heresy, but please bear with me for a moment. I'm not trying to start yet another debate on the subject of good drivers vs. nannies. I'm all for nannies. I'm just trying to understand how they actually work.

The electronic stability system comprises two components:

1. Traction Control - this senses when a driven wheel loses grip. When that happens it cuts off power. You press the throttle and nothing happens. It will allow only as much torque to be sent to the wheels as the least gripping wheel can handle.
2. AdvanceTrac - this senses when the car's trajectory doesn't correspond to the steering input. When that happens it applies the brakes to various degrees to each individual wheel, to keep the car from spinning.

It's generally agreed that turning the traction control off on the street is bad, and that if you do that you'll eventually go backwards into a tree. Or worse, into a crowd. But will you really? Why would you? Isn't it the job of the AdvanceTrac to keep you on track? Turning off the traction control will merely allow one of the rear wheels to spin. But as long as that spin isn't actually causing the car to swerve you should be fine. And if it does cause it to swerve, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
The car has a limited slip diff. Even if one wheel spins, the other will still receive a good amount of torque. It will still move. One rear wheel spinning doesn't necessarily mean that the car is out of control. And if it actually gets on the verge of getting out of control, then the AdvanceTrac will keep it straight.
So do we actually need the TC? OK, it's a nice thing to have, but is it actually essential? Is it really so dangerous to turn the TC off, as long as the AdvanceTrac is still up and running?

Thank you.
Easy. Seeing is Believing. Find a large empty parking lot, turn traction control off, then floor your car and see how small a figure 8 you can do before sliding out of control. Then turn the TC back on and do the same. You will then find out exactly what traction control does for your car during fast maneuver conditions. Have fun.
 

raptor17GT

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when it snowed I used to take my old mr2 turbo to an empty car park and get it sideways and see how I could get it back in line or have it crabbing up the carpark under power with some lock on. Was good fun as was doing doughnuts with it when I got bored of trying to control it. Then drive home like Miss Daisy on the snow covered roads.
 

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But I do remember a few stressful winter drives,
I grew up and learned to drive in Northern Wi. Dirt roads that were basically ice covered from November to March.

I used to love getting the tail loose much fun. When in HS we would have contests to see who could hang the car sideways for the longest time. (most distance)
 

D Bergstrom

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My traction control is my right foot. This comes from owning a 2003 Mustang Cobra. As soon as I started that car, the first thing I did was turn off the traction control, every time. Why? Because it was dangerous! I would go to pull out in traffic in a hurry, which was no problem with a 400 HP supercharged V8, but if just one tire slipped a little bit, TC would kick in and I would have to fully get out of the gas and then get back into it, not fun when you are trying to get up to speed with cars coming up behind you!

Now I usually leave TC on in my 2020, but whenever I want to get a little crazy, the first thing I do is reach down and turn it off. Half the fun is getting the rear to slide around some!

Doug
 

Norm Peterson

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If your car is inherently unstable, it's just terribly designed from vehicle dynamics point of view and uses stability control as a band aid - which hard to believe . . .
Maybe not so hard to believe when you recall the direction Lexus took to correct lift-throttle oversteer in their GX460 SUV a few years back. Instead of tweaking the suspension mechanically, they reflashed the stability control module with a faster-acting calibration.


Just the thought that a mfr might use ESC to rein in a handling balance that feels nimble in normal driving but would be too 'loose' in somewhat harder driving has been scaring me for some time now. And I think I've read as almost an offhand comment where that may actually be happening in one case.


Norm
 
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Norm Peterson

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My traction control is my right foot.
Same here.

For me and most of the people in my age group (and those even older) it came from the first 30 or more years of driving where TC by right foot was all we had available. About 45 for me personally, so it's no big deal to drive with the electronic kind turned off. Just the act of turning it off serves as a reminder to pay attention to conditions.


Norm
 

D Bergstrom

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Same here.

For me and most of the people in my age group (and those even older) it came from the first 30 or more years of driving where TC by right foot was all we had available. About 45 for me personally, so it's no big deal to drive with the electronic kind turned off. Just the act of turning it off serves as a reminder to pay attention to conditions.


Norm
Yep, when I learned to drive there was no such thing as traction control, plus I have been a desert rat my entire life. Between dirt bikes, trucks, and riding and racing quads for decades, I learned throttle control. (The only traction control anything had was the throttle.) I have who knows how many miles of riding and racing through the desert, lots of time in the dirt. Dirt is even less forgiving the asphault. First car I ever owned with TC was that 2003 Cobra, probably explains why I hated TC so much, didn't like something telling me that I couldn't do something when I new I could!

Doug
 

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Vlad Soare

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Yesterday I went to a track that's close to my home to play around with the different modes and to learn how to control the car when it runs out of grip. Luckily it had also snowed a bit, so there was a combination of snow, ice, dry tarmac, and moist tarmac. Marvellous.
It was an awesome experience.
Now I have the answer to all my questions.
I tried to unsettle its tail with the TC+ESC on, then with the TC off and ESC on, then with both off, under a variety of circumstances.

With both on I couldn't throw its tail around at all. Every time I accelerated a bit harder than the rear wheels could handle, the TC instantly cut off the gas and that was the end of it.
With the TC off and the ESC on, things were much more interesting and exciting. The tail would slide sideways, but the car would remain perfectly controllable. As long as the slide was within reasonable limits the ESC wouldn't intervene, but if I overdid it it would step in and keep me on track.
With both the TC and ESC off it was really fun, but also trickier. The car is still quite easily controllable if you know what you're doing. Despite my lack of drifting experience I still managed to get it right several times, though I also spun twice. With a bit of practice I'm sure I could learn how to control it every time.

Both the instructor and I were very impressed by the nice and predictable way the car handled.

Ever since I joined this forum almost a year ago, I kept reading that the Mustang is a tricky beast, that it can be overhelming if you don't treat it with the utmost respect, that the rear wheels always want to get in front, etc. And I'm just not seeing that. All I can see is that:
1. You need to do a conscious effort to unsettle the rear end. Not only does it ordinarily not want to get in front, but quite the contrary, it takes a definite, intentional action to make it do that.
2. Once the rear end loses grip, regaining it with the ESC on is a piece of cake.
3. If the rear end slides while the ESC is off, it's still quite easy to control as long as you don't panic and know what to do. It will only spin if you mess something up.

So why does the Mustang have such a scary reputation? There's nothing scary about it all. It's incredibly docile. I feel more confident now in the Mustang than I have ever felt in any other car.
 
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Vlad Soare

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One thing I particularly liked was the recovery from an understeer situation. One of the most common mistakes people make in real-life traffic is entering a corner too fast. In that case the car will understeer. The standard way of recovering from understeer not only goes against all of your instincts, but it also requires space you often don't have. So I tried to see if I could recover by throwing the tail around - either by accelerating hard (with the TC off, but ESC on), or by pulling the handbrake.
Both methods worked like a treat.
I love this car.
 

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One thing I particularly liked was the recovery from an understeer situation. One of the most common mistakes people make in real-life traffic is entering a corner too fast. In that case the car will understeer. The standard way of recovering from understeer not only goes against all of your instincts, but it also requires space you often don't have. So I tried to see if I could recover by throwing the tail around - either by accelerating hard (with the TC off, but ESC on), or by pulling the handbrake.
Both methods worked like a treat.
I love this car.
That's how you will end up in the sidewalk though :). The MP4S maybe make a difference but the car is dangerous for a number of reason both a lot of power to real wheels and not that much restricted TC. Sure the TC help but try doing a 90 degree turn and step on the gas while the wheel is still turning you will find out what all people here are talking about. Accelerating straight is not a problem doing it sideways is what get you.
 
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Vlad Soare

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Yes, I know the theory, but I just can't see it. I guess this theory was coined by people whose throttle pedal has only two possible positions - off and flat out.
What I'm actually seeing is that, as long as you're smooth with the throttle, the car is perfectly fine under all normal driving conditions, that it takes a conscious action to make it lose grip, and that when it does lose grip, it does it in a progressive and easily controllable way.
 
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I found my 2020 very much controllable as well although I did not have the chance to get on a track yet. I read that the Pirelli P Zero which were used from factory in earlier MYs were not so great. So I suppose thr later MYs (2018+?) which are equipped with the Michelin P4S have an advantage at least regarding handling the car.

Right now the outside temperatures are less than optimal and getting the car loose grip is very easy even when only accelerating into a corner with even just a little bit of throttle in normal mode.
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