It’s coming... 3 States have now banned future combustion engine car sales

[wilkinda65]

That's fair, but it still doesn't address the main issue in that there are "emissions" being generated to generate electricity aka electric vehicles ain't "clean".

Governments are also putting alot of subsidies and restrictions in reducing emissions for ICE engines.

That's what bugs me...it seems people think that electricity is clean magic while ICE engines are dirty, nasty polluting devices.

I'm fully aware they are not clean. I laugh when people talk about electric cars as if it is clean. When I explain that the electricity comes from power plants that operate on liq fuel or gas fuel which is fossil fuel they seem......surprised. how the hell did they think the house they live in gets electricity?

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[sk47]

What is funny is that people fail to realize what is done to the earth to get the materials harvested to make those batteries.

Hello; It is a trade off among the technologies. The very mature fossil fuels with their established support lines compared to an emerging all electric technology. My understanding is the newest batteries need some more rare minerals such a lithium. This may not translate well, but the quality of an ore deposit is subject to the final value of the product. For some low value ores not much earth overburden will be moved to get at the ore. For very valued ores a lot of overburden will be moved. So for these rare battery minerals a great deal of environmental impact will go along with the mining of these ores.

I can assure you most power plants are not "dirty" in the USA.

Hello; Fair enough.

just because the US has clean energy doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme until the rest of the world also catches up.

Hello; So if we concede the power plants of the USA are mostly clean and that electric power can be had from nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, tide and other sources, then some points come up.
First there is the building of new coal power plants in places such as China. That air pollution does not stay in China.
Then if I am not mistaken some countries have been moving away from nuclear after the three big incidents in the USA, Russia and Japan. I think Germany is doing away with their nuclear plants. There is also the trade off of nuclear waste storage.
Finally will the capacity of the other non fossil fuel sources of electric power up to the demands of all electric cars by 2035.
Do not get me wrong. In time oil based fuel will be diminished and other things will have to step up if they can. The alternative is doing with less electricity.

 

[EFI]

Hello; So if we concede the power plants of the USA are mostly clean and that electric power can be had from nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, tide and other sources, then some points come up.

But I don't concede that notion. Clean power is 37.2% currently, far from "mostly". And out of that 37.2% less than half that (17.6%) is actual clean, renewable energy. 2/3rds of electricity in the US is fossil fuels (mainly natural gas and coal).

And based on your next statement, by countries going away from nuclear than that reduces the amount of electricity being clean. If anything, nuclear has to increase greatly and take up the fossil fuel sources not the other way around.

We are far, far, far away from being anywhere near mostly clean energy (wind, solar, hydro, etc.). Not only are we far away from being able to supplement the current electric demand with such, what happens when the demand for electricity goes up 300% from all the cars on the grid now?

 

[smokescreens]

This is the least of things to worry bout on my radar. But, people will figure out a way to register it another state and keep rollin.

couldn't agree more.

 

[sk47]

But I don't concede that notion. Clean power is 37.2% currently, far from "mostly". And out of that 37.2% less than half that (17.6%) is actual clean, renewable energy. 2/3rds of electricity in the US is fossil fuels (mainly natural gas and coal).

And based on your next statement, by countries going away from nuclear than that reduces the amount of electricity being clean. If anything, nuclear has to increase greatly and take up the fossil fuel sources not the other way around.

We are far, far, far away from being anywhere near mostly clean energy (wind, solar, hydro, etc.). Not only are we far away from being able to supplement the current electric demand with such, what happens when the demand for electricity goes up 300% from all the cars on the grid now?

Hello; Sorry for the confusion. I do agree with these points you make and do not dispute them. I was attempting to make similar points. I should have written something along the lines of lets pretend the USA power plants are mostly clean in place of concede. Poor sentence structure on my part. Yes we a very far from clean energy.

No I do not figure USA power is clean as your figures do point out. I may have stated this before but will again. Some of these notions are of the virtue signaling sort that seem to make a portion of folks feel better. That if we pick a "bad guy" to take out (in this case an ICE) then things will be better.

 

[Hack]

I thought the reason to go to electric was to reduce greenhouse emissions. Clean power is a new counter argument I haven't heard before. Anyway it doesn't matter what the arguments are or whether they make logical sense. It's just like others said, control and power. The people have too much freedom and power right now and lots of government officials think they know what's best.

I really have nothing against electric cars. Just let people choose what they want to buy rather than becoming a fascist state.

I remember Trump tried to make it illegal for individual states to go against the Fed on emissions. I'm actually surprised it was stopped by both of the entrenched parties. Possibly unintended or possibly not, the Fed could have outlawed gas cars EVERYWHERE in one fell swoop if that had happened. So at least we have some slight protection of freedom from individual states. People can move away from the areas where the black booted thugs are running the show.

The shorter term thing is how the government basically pushed small cars out by holding them to a different emissions standard than pickups and SUVs. If they did their fuel economy taxes on everything people would pay a lot less for small cars vs. an SUV that comparably is a fuel hog. A small SUV burns probably about twice the fuel as a small car on the highway. The best answer is always to get rid of the regulations.

 

[Troutwrangler]

Found a pic of a diesel powered Tesla....

 

[sk47]

I thought the reason to go to electric was to reduce greenhouse emissions.

Hello; I guess we were not supposed to look behind the curtain. Sure an all electric will not be emitting tail pipe pollutants nor any CO2 driving down the road. I can only guess this aspect of electric cars may be all the proponents look at.
Producing electricity at a point source power plant can be cleaner than thousands of vehicles with ICE tail pipe emissions. Can be but not always will be. A power plant can have scrubbers and other tech if it burns coal to reduce some of the CO2 emissions, but not all. I live in TVA area so at least some of my electricity is from hydro.
The manufacture of electric vehicles creates the same sort of emissions as for any car. So say I have a well tuned small (ICE) car which gets good mileage and has lots of life left. It may actually create more real greenhouse gasses to junk that car and manufacture a new electric car. I do not know the numbers, but to junk the entire fleet of ICE vehicles for brand new electric vehicles could be an emissions nightmare.

shorter term thing is how the government basically pushed small cars out by holding them to a different emissions standard than pickups and SUVs.

Hello; Yes it does not make much sense. Ford for example has stopped making small cars in what I have heard. An example or two. Back in 1974 I bought a used Porsche 914 with a 1.7 liter engine. It was low on power and did not have AC, but fun to drive. I owned it during the worst of the oil embargo years and could get over 40 Mpg. Later on I bought a 1985 Honda Civic HF. Had AC and also got over 40MPG.
Now few of the newest ,non hybrid, small cars I look at get over 40 MPG. The same sort of government regulations have added complexity and with that weight to the small cars. More weight takes more energy so fewer MPG.

To your point. Yes the standards for the small cars became more stringent. So people drive the bigger heavier suv's and trucks. SUV's and pickups burn more fuel so must produce more greenhouse gasses. Does not make sense.

 

[DougS550]

Elections Have Consequences, This is Only The Beginning, It Will Get Much, Much Worse

 

[Troutwrangler]

My bet is that we will still be able to buy ICE vehicles in most states, but the "gas guzzler" taxes/fees on them will be insane.

 

[sk47]

Elections Have Consequences, This is Only The Begining, I Will Get Much, Much Worse

Hello; Was listening to the news last hour while on the computer. Heard a report. It seems some think tank was predicting the USA would go bankrupt by around 2030 before. Now they are calling it for 2024 or 2025.
In the thread on this site about student debt forgiveness some of us have been talking about the national debt and massive deficit spending. Printing money out of thin air sort of thing. So it likely will get worse. I have no confidence with the 2025 prediction, could be sooner.

 

[Millarduck]

People here are missing the point, these states are behind the times. This is not political, it’s market driven. The rest of the world is moving to EVs. The US is slow to adopt these mandates. Only Ford and GM are American. Meanwhile the EU is moving to 30 million EVs by 2030 (source Reuters) with climate neutrality by 2050. China also is moving to a more ambitious EV conversion. China imposed a mandate on automakers requiring that electric vehicles (EVs) make up 40% of all sales by 2030. So you have the largest car market, China and the largest auto manufacturing consortiums based in the EU, who do you think is really driving the end of ICE? EU and China will lead in the manufacturing, technology, and infrastructure required to do this. They will have EV manufacturing economies of scale. It’s an evolution, like the end of coal powering locomotives. We can resist and cede our technology leadership as we have limited ownership of our auto manufacturing or we can get on board. Sell your Exxon-Mobil stock, EVs are coming. They will be charged with your home solar panels or windmill as the power generation market will also reduce to peaker plants. It’s not political, it’s market driven by countries outside of the US. Renault-Nissan, Honda, FCA, VW, BMW, Daimler, & Hyundai know where their growth market is... China. China with the EU car market will dictate what is available not CA, NJ, and MA.

 

[Hack]

Elections Have Consequences, This is Only The Beginning, It Will Get Much, Much Worse

Since now they can put whoever they want in office regardless of how the people vote, elections may have become almost inconsequential.

People here are missing the point, these states are behind the times. This is not political, it’s market driven. The rest of the world is moving to EVs. The US is slow to adopt these mandates. Only Ford and GM are American. Meanwhile the EU is moving to 30 million EVs by 2030 (source Reuters) with climate neutrality by 2050. China also is moving to a more ambitious EV conversion. China imposed a mandate on automakers requiring that electric vehicles (EVs) make up 40% of all sales by 2030. So you have the largest car market, China and the largest auto manufacturing consortiums based in the EU, who do you think is really driving the end of ICE? EU and China will lead in the manufacturing, technology, and infrastructure required to do this. They will have EV manufacturing economies of scale. It’s an evolution, like the end of coal powering locomotives. We can resist and cede our technology leadership as we have limited ownership of our auto manufacturing or we can get on board. Sell your Exxon-Mobil stock, EVs are coming. They will be charged with your home solar panels or windmill as the power generation market will also reduce to peaker plants. It’s not political, it’s market driven by countries outside of the US. Renault-Nissan, Honda, FCA, VW, BMW, Daimler, & Hyundai know where their growth market is... China. China with the EU car market will dictate what is available not CA, NJ, and MA.

Market driven? Ha ha, I don't think you understand that phrase. Markets mean people buy what they want. Markets don't mean that overreaching governments dictate what people can and can't buy.

Electric vehicles aren't good enough for people to really want to buy them yet, except for a small percentage of people that have a bias and will sacrifice performance for what they believe is a benefit. That's why they are being forced down our throats by dictatorial governments.

If Europe and China make cars people don't want, they won't sell. Period.

Like the Porche 718 with the turbo 4 rather than a flat 6 to gain a millionth of a % of fuel economy. Porsche went back to the flat 6 pretty quickly.

 

[FreePenguin]

I think the biggest issue is overpopulation imo. Older days, family had one two cars, now they have 10 kids with 10 cars then they pop out 10 kids each. Look at China having billions of people, I think overpopulation is going to destroy the world lol

 

[shogun32]

So what happens if we run out of fuel? Lol I mean crude oil

you die. from the lack of plastics. Sure fuel matters to gear heads, but look at food prep and medical care. That industry runs on crude. There is zero evidence we're in danger of running out of oil. Cheap to extract oil, maybe.

What's hilarious about these dumb-ass state-level pronouncements written by ignoramuses is what do they expect will be done with all the gasoline that results from cracking? To get your plastics, your diesel (transport, farming), naphtha, and many other compounds you inevitably end up with gasoline coming out of the pipe. I can't wait for 10cent/gallon gasoline, you?

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