Is it OK to post about a shady dealer ...?

[snakeyes]

It’s no secret Dealers are liars, like it’s no secret the Government is corrupt and Banks, and Insurance Companies are also corrupt but seemingly necessary EVILS. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

(If this is viewed as a political post it isn’t my intention, feel free to remove it, but please don’t punish me )

Sponsored

 

[young at heart]

Good point, I should have been more specific in my example. Ridiculous charges yes, but it was only after we started talking about taking delivery of the vehicle that all of a sudden the $2k no trade charge and $2k no financing charges came up. I had no intention of financing and obviously no trade.

I personally find it shady when dealers give preferential treatment to folks that finance vs those that don't. In my opinion, financing is a method of payment just like cash is - it shouldn't matter how a person plans to pay. Textbook free market conditions - yes it is, I can agree to that; however my perspective on what is "shady" may differ from yours. The dealer was acting shady by pushing unethical upcharges that cannot simply be justified in actually charging, even if it was upfront. Makes me question their business practices and wonder what else they would want to get away with. Feel free to disagree.

There’s nothing shady or unethical about the dealer trying to make money any legal way he sees fit as long as you aren’t forced into paying his silly charges or tricked into paying. Maybe it’s slimy and he’s taking advantage of the market but you didn’t have to buy it and you didn’t. No harm, no foul, not shady. Actually the polar opposite of shady; he was right up front with what he was trying to do and you walked. He gave you fair notice and you took full advantage of it.

I get the impression you may not fully understand the sales process. Financing through the dealer is nowhere close to being just another payment method like cash. The dealer makes significant money from the financing when you go through him. It frequently is in the thousands of dollars and usually more than the total gross profit he makes from selling you the car. Of course he has a vested interest in you financing with him.

 

[ay1820]

Buy fast....
Carvana Doesn't Say the Word 'Bankruptcy,' but Its Situation Is Alarming
The used-car giant had only $434 million cash at the end of 2022 as its debt continued to rise.

Yeah ... this is pretty common with industry disrupters. I saw (and experienced) a lot of this during the "dot com" days. Early players end up having really volatile market rides up and down and very few survive. Others learn from the mistakes and end up perfecting the model. I haven't written them off yet, but I certainly wouldn't buy their stock.

 

[Reap]

You're aware she lost nearly $600,000,000 along with the once Royals in SVB.
What a shame.

Yeah, that just breaks my heart.

 

[cerbomark]

that was da rules till a couple weeks ago. The FED changed the rules because EVERY bank is dead-man walking right now if people pull their deposits. This is one of the evils of fractional reserve banking - if the natives get restless and try to retrieve "theirs" the bank is likely to collapse since there is duration mismatch and having to sell assets today to convert to cash means they have to sell at market (or lower) and thereby book losses in so doing.

It was all made vastly worse because of the so called "fixes" put in place in 2008/9 which basically amount to letting the banks LIE with impunity as to their actual risk and solvency.

Fundamentally SVB was beyond STUPID by chasing long-dated instrument "returns" which were paying basically bupkis back when, but as the Fed hiked rates, that same instrument if bought today would pay 4 going on 5%. Rather than rebalance their portfolio and book real losses, which would have put a major crimp in their stock price, they tried to pretend they didn't have problem. Because in order to entice anybody to buy their 1%-yielding 10yr bonds, they would be forced to discount the price to make the yield the same as current. This meant a 15 billion dollar 'loss' on there, just off-book and they only had capitalization of about 16B, and it was game over.

Except sufficient persons who bothered to READ the actual filings from last year could trivially see they were going to detonate and so started pulling "theirs". Then more people piled on until the edifice blew up AS EXPECTED.

The Fed/FDIC put in a new "program" whereby the Fed will give the bank par for the treasuries for 1yr so they can pay off the panic'd sheep demanding their money. They are praying that this is where it ends and all the sheep go back to grazing and being oblivious. But it doesn't actually solve the problem which is duration mismatch made vastly worse in a rising rate environment and especially rising as fast as it is.

The joke though is the Fed rate is STILL negative. They just need to go to 11% or higher in a single step but that will make every bank insolvent immediately. 30 years of GROSS malfeasance and fraud has hell to pay. And we're getting our first nibble at it.

so are the panicked sheep the smart ones?

 

[cerbomark]

Yeah, I get that it sounds contradictory but it is how I feel. I think because they were quick in responding and fixing the main issue I faced, it made me feel that that issue wasn’t a reason to have a sour view of the overall experience. The part I’m still dealing with is minor in comparison, and was actually kind of an extra beyond their standard practice because of the negative experience I shared with them, so I’m not too upset about it. Especially since I’ve already gotten so much enjoyment out of the car itself and look forward to the warmer months, I’ve somewhat forgotten about the dealer part of it. And yeah, I actually would’ve gotten the same build through Chapman as I ordered there way before Ourisman, but at the time it was still uncertain if it would even be built and ended up being delivered about a year after I ordered. For comparison, order to pickup at Ourisman was about 3-4 months. And yeah coming in with your own financing and everything already set up I can imagine would make the process much smoother anywhere. In the future I’ll definitely look more at that.

what I have found over decades and dozens of purchases is that the so called "good guy" at the dealer that s trying to help was in on the scam the whole time and he's just the bailout guy after they are discovered. They all know what they are doing.

 

[snakeyes]

TO THE GUY THAT THINKS WHAT DEALERS DO IS OK:

You are SO very wrong, not everyone is in tune with “The Dealers” playbook…
But -
Let me see if I got this right please - from my screen it looks like this -

it’s ok to take advantage of people (who are obviously not as smart as you) if their led to it, by what you call legal means. Lying is ethically wrong because lying is miss leading and miss leading is a fine line that leads to FRAUD. Miss-leading someone into believing something “you the liar” knows isn’t true is legally, and morally wrong. A skilled Liar, Con Artist, Carney Barker is just another Crook taking advantage of the unfortunate folks that aren’t as smart as you think you are - usually wearing a suit and tie.

your description above of why it’s ok to do what they do - is usually the description and rational that the thief and perp employs and uses as his or her moral compass as to why he or she is doing - is ok… which leads me to a couple of conclusions about you.

so if I reach into your pocket as you pass by and steal your wallet it’s ok cause you didn’t button your pocket or beating a dog is ok cause it barks to much and “you” think it’s a stupid animal.

My guess is YOU WORK AT A DEALERSHIP …

 

[2016S550]

I have to say I was actually shocked to see the dealer is Ourisman. Them buying from another dealer who could not sell due to the location is nothin unusual.
I dealt with Jason and Simon. Simon was probably one of the easiest Finance persons i’ve dealt with in a long time and made that part of the process painless. I did not meet Casey, and by the sound of all this from the perspective here it sounds like I was very fortunate. I have bought well over 30 new cars in my life, probably more and understand the game very well.
Shogun32 has a working relationship with the dealer and Ourisman has made a significant effort to be the leading Mustang dealer in the country. I cannot fathom a dealer willing to lose business by keeping a finance guy on staff that will undoubtedly cause them to lose business. Word travels fast in the Mustang community. Yes we are just a fraction here on the forum but this place has some followers. Hopefully there will be some resolution that restores faith in this dealer. Yes we are just hearing one side and that should be taken into account, but giving the benefit of the doubt to the member and hearing from more than one member about this “Casey” would cause me to NOT be a repeat customer at Ourisman in Manassas.

 

[snakeyes]

Well the fact that you read the post in the first place is a testament to Mr. Shogun and his legitimacy to make sure he does right by the members. Kudos to him.

As far as the dealer goes well there are good and bad everywhere - and as I have stated there were a couple of good guys that tried to help.

Apparently, (I have been told) if you deal with the right folks over there you are good to go. My mission isn’t/wasn’t to rain hate on this Dealer actually I asked them for an apology didn’t get one, if I did I would have bought the car. If the right guy stepped up you wouldn’t even be reading this - oh well, I don’t know what more to say. As far as my side of this story I can assure you it’s all true, believe it or not that’s up to you.

Remember one thing though - I asked if I could post and was told to roll - so I did. Don’t want other folks having to deal with this crap at ANY Dealer.

 

[young at heart]

TO THE GUY THAT THINKS WHAT DEALERS DO IS OK:

You are SO very wrong, not everyone is in tune with “The Dealers” playbook…
But -
Let me see if I got this right please - from my screen it looks like this -

it’s ok to take advantage of people (who are obviously not as smart as you) if their led to it, by what you call legal means. Lying is ethically wrong because lying is miss leading and miss leading is a fine line that leads to FRAUD. Miss-leading someone into believing something “you the liar” knows isn’t true is legally, and morally wrong. A skilled Liar, Con Artist, Carney Barker is just another Crook taking advantage of the unfortunate folks that aren’t as smart as you think you are - usually wearing a suit and tie.

your description above of why it’s ok to do what they do - is usually the description and rational that the thief and perp employs and uses as his or her moral compass as to why he or she is doing - is ok… which leads me to a couple of conclusions about you.

so if I reach into your pocket as you pass by and steal your wallet it’s ok cause you didn’t button your pocket or beating a dog is ok cause it barks to much and “you” think it’s a stupid animal.

My guess is YOU WORK AT A DEALERSHIP …

I’m sorry but your post above is so disjointed and scattered that I honestly can’t tell if you’re talking about me or not. I’ll assume you are, and in that respect I‘ll just say a couple of things.

I never said it’s OK to lie or cheat people. But that isn’t what happened to the guy who was presented with a list of charges they were trying to “sell“ him. The dealer was simply trying to creatively justify what other dealers call ADM. The poster didn’t bite on it and he walked, so the dealer’s ploy didn’t work. But it was in no sense shady. How is it shady if the dealer tells you right up front what he’s trying to get you to pay? This is the opposite of shady-it’s very transparent in fact. It allows the customer to leave and visit another dealership if he so desires.

When you walk into a dealership you need (in most cases) to liken it to wandering into a war zone of sorts. There’ll be a winner and a loser. If you are not sophisticated enough to hold your own in a complicated negotiation, for goodness sakes take a grown-up in with you. Dealers must follow the law but they’re under no obligation to be charitable and most of them will show little to no mercy. Not putting a value judgement on it but just pointing out the reality of things.

 

[snakeyes]

So in the end Ourisman did what I expected which is NOTHING both offenders apparently are still working there - unencumbered, Business as usual. Which tells me they did nothing wrong in the eyes of owners or management and more then likely were just acting under the SOP guidelines as set forth by the head Pirate.

so if you deal with Ourisman deal at your own peril, you have been warned.

 

[Oakley]

There’s nothing shady or unethical about the dealer trying to make money any legal way he sees fit as long as you aren’t forced into paying his silly charges or tricked into paying. Maybe it’s slimy and he’s taking advantage of the market but you didn’t have to buy it and you didn’t. No harm, no foul, not shady. Actually the polar opposite of shady; he was right up front with what he was trying to do and you walked. He gave you fair notice and you took full advantage of it.

disagree, there are PLENTY of perfectly legal ways for a dealer to CON you. if what you said here is true then con artists aren't doing anything wrong.

that saidi, the mark of a shady dealer is a salesman not listening to you. if you're talking about agreed upon price and they keep trying to steer you towards payments, they're being shady. if they keep trying to huck things you already said you don't want, shady. if they want to add excessive document fees, shady. if you order a car, wait for it, and it shows up but now they wanna dick you on the trade in or add a fee to the car? shady.

here's what i mean:

The dealer was simply trying to creatively justify what other dealers call ADM. The poster didn’t bite on it and he walked, so the dealer’s ploy didn’t work. But it was in no sense shady. How is it shady if the dealer tells you right up front what he’s trying to get you to pay?

its not right up front. right up front would be "bro we gotta justify this ADM on paper so this is what we have to do". shady is "okay no ADM, just these charges"

its a con. the fact is they do this to everyone but the more expensive the purchase the more they try.

dealers SHOULD be trustworthy, they SHOULD listen but there is always a disconnect between general management and the sales floor that results in sharks treating shrewed negotiators like whales.

i'm fine with them harpooning idiots, what bothers me is when they are so sloppy, unskilled, and stupid that they start treating the straight shooters like those same whales.

 

[shogun32]

I'm not at liberty to speak out of turn about events still developing, or otherwise not allowed to post, including Ford-to-dealer communications. That said:

When putting together a deal with Ourisman Manassas you are welcome to request both your salesman and finance officer by name. On finance side Hans and Simon are known "good eggs". Sales you can't go wrong with Jason or Latisha. If you run into any snags, feel free to PM me and I'll see what I can do. I'm in frequent (almost daily) contact and in-person pretty much weekly.

There have been many good sales to members of this forum and I hope for Ourisman' sake this is the end of it, and that they can cement their position as the best volume Mustang dealer in the East Coast (or nationally) and continue to respond positively to the business competition offered by Granger.

 

[young at heart]

disagree, there are PLENTY of perfectly legal ways for a dealer to CON you. if what you said here is true then con artists aren't doing anything wrong.

that saidi, the mark of a shady dealer is a salesman not listening to you. if you're talking about agreed upon price and they keep trying to steer you towards payments, they're being shady. if they keep trying to huck things you already said you don't want, shady. if they want to add excessive document fees, shady. if you order a car, wait for it, and it shows up but now they wanna dick you on the trade in or add a fee to the car? shady.

here's what i mean:



its not right up front. right up front would be "bro we gotta justify this ADM on paper so this is what we have to do". shady is "okay no ADM, just these charges"

its a con. the fact is they do this to everyone but the more expensive the purchase the more they try.

dealers SHOULD be trustworthy, they SHOULD listen but there is always a disconnect between general management and the sales floor that results in sharks treating shrewed negotiators like whales.

i'm fine with them harpooning idiots, what bothers me is when they are so sloppy, unskilled, and stupid that they start treating the straight shooters like those same whales.

You really do seem to have a pretty creative definition of what is and isn’t shady. It’s a little surprising that you were able to find a dealer from whom you were comfortable buying a car.

 

[Oakley]

You really do seem to have a pretty creative definition of what is and isn’t shady. It’s a little surprising that you were able to find a dealer from whom you were comfortable buying a car.

comfort should have nothing to do with it but i guess you may be on to something...
comfort is why suckers get hosed by strangers out to fleece them as if they owe the sharks anything.

its not creative at all. to the contrary, its remarkably consistent. i've come across a few in my day that were up front about everything. we get a long very well and i go to them first... but none are to be trusted and most should be treated with the highest level of skepticism possible.

Sponsored