Is Ford lacking on performance?

[millhouse]

Ford leaves much more open to interpretation and allows the dealer to decide what is covered. GM is more up front about covering track use, very clear actually. Not looking for an argument here, but please don’t mislead.

In the end, if either manufacturer can prove that you abused either beyond the normal limits (over-rev for example) then neither would be warrantied from damage.

Quite honestly, if you brake down at the track and have the car towed to the dealer...they have no clue if you were racing in a private event or an actual competition (where both warranties are void). It's up to both manufacturers to determine if you abused the car past the limits, as neither is going to be able to prove you were racing for money/prize.

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[Hack]

In the end, if either manufacturer can prove that you abused either beyond the normal limits (over-rev for example) then neither would be warrantied from damage.

Quite honestly, if you brake down at the track and have the car towed to the dealer...they have no clue if you were racing in a private event or an actual competition (where both warranties are void). It's up to both manufacturers to determine if you abused the car past the limits, as neither is going to be able to prove you were racing for money/prize.

If the car was at an actual racing event they will probably be able to find information about that event.

 

[Must_Tang]

Do you have evidence of Ford dealers turning down warranty coverage due to amateur racing?

Personal, yes. Full disclosure, I did not follow the case through to fruition. However, I brought my car in for an engine noise, and the dealer said no initially, and that they would have to "open a case with Ford". The car had a Mishi oil cooler on it.

They wanted to pre-charge me cash for a diagnosis.The car was a 2016 GT with 27K on it.

Not to mention the poor attitude from them during my service visit from more than one Ford dealer in my area. Probably localized because I have heard from other members here that Ford dealers in their areas provided a good experience.

The "other" manufacturer plainly states the car will be covered for non-competition events. As long is it driven "as-delivered".

 

[martinjlm]

Both Ford and GM warranty vehicles driven on the track. What's not warrantied by either camp is when you run a vehicle in a race sanctioned time event.

The "other" manufacturer plainly states the car will be covered for non-competition events. As long is it driven "as-delivered".

Did some digging on this topic. Didn’t have to look too far to find this fairly comprehensive article on the topic. From Autoblog a little over a year ago. Definitely supports a mix of millhouse’s and Must_Tang’s statements. The race sanctioned time event is not part of the GM exclusion. The only real exclusion for GM warranty appears to be modification, including tunes and CAI.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/27/new-car-warranty-valid-race-track/#slide-3972665

 

[Must_Tang]

In the end, if either manufacturer can prove that you abused either beyond the normal limits (over-rev for example) then neither would be warrantied from damage.

Quite honestly, if you brake down at the track and have the car towed to the dealer...they have no clue if you were racing in a private event or an actual competition (where both warranties are void). It's up to both manufacturers to determine if you abused the car past the limits, as neither is going to be able to prove you were racing for money/prize.

They can tell. The look for rubber marbles in the wheel wells, burnished brakes, etc. Ford has a tech advisory on it, which I saw posted somewhere on this forum.

Would the other manufacturer deny a claim? Sure..it depends on the situation, and most importantly, your relationship with your dealer. Sometimes it's worth it to throw some cash maintenance work to them every now and then. How do I know this?

I worked as a dealer tech when I was young. One of the first things the service writer does is look at the work history. The pen is mightier than the sword here.

Bottom line is if you want to play on the track, be prepared to pay...one way or the other.

 

[Must_Tang]

Did some digging on this topic. Didn’t have to look too far to find this fairly comprehensive article on the topic. From Autoblog a little over a year ago. Definitely supports a mix of millhouse’s and Must_Tang’s statements. The race sanctioned time event is not part of the GM exclusion. The only real exclusion for GM warranty appears to be modification, including tunes and CAI.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/27/new-car-warranty-valid-race-track/#slide-3972665

Not starting a quarrel here, but the "other" manufacturers automobile is quite ready for HPDE out of the box. So the "as-delivered" is less of an issue. Cooling is in place for all systems, including front brake ducts and scoops. Trans and differential, plus 3 coolant radiators on base models. The car is ready to go.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Not starting a quarrel here, but the "other" manufacturers automobile is quite ready for HPDE out of the box. So the "as-delivered" is less of an issue. Cooling is in place for all systems, including front brake ducts and scoops. Trans and differential, plus 3 coolant radiators on base models. The car is ready to go.

Which at the very least goes to mfr commitment to supporting that kind of use. As opposed to maybe only a little more than lip service.


Nor

 

[millhouse]

Did some digging on this topic. Didn’t have to look too far to find this fairly comprehensive article on the topic. From Autoblog a little over a year ago. Definitely supports a mix of millhouse’s and Must_Tang’s statements. The race sanctioned time event is not part of the GM exclusion. The only real exclusion for GM warranty appears to be modification, including tunes and CAI.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/02/27/new-car-warranty-valid-race-track/#slide-3972665

Actually, it is...

"We reached out to Ford Motor Company [NYSE:F] and Dodge to ask about the warranty coverage for the Mustang and Challenger. From Ford we learned that all Mustangs are covered for "test-and-tune" days but not competition. That's the same as the Camaro, but even base Mustangs are covered. Dodge said taking a Challenger to a track day doesn't void the warranty, but any damage incurred will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis."

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...amaros-warranty-if-you-take-it-to-a-racetrack

I can't find the other article, but there is one out there where it was explicitly stated that timed events would not be warrantied (for the camaro). That's not to confuse test and tune timed events to actual "racing" timed events.

They can tell. The look for rubber marbles in the wheel wells, burnished brakes, etc. Ford has a tech advisory on it, which I saw posted somewhere on this forum.

I don't think you understand, test and tune and HDPE does not void your warranty, only racing for trophy or money does. And even then, the warranty isn't voided, the manufacturer simply wouldn't warranty the issue if one were to occur on the tack (if they knew it was a timed event).

As for your oil cooler issue, you chose not to press the issue...but it would have been impossible for the dealership to prove the oil cooler caused any damage and thus they would have been required to warranty your vehicle. The burden of proof is on them, not you. Had you simply taken your car to a different dealership who didn't have their head up their ass, they would have had no issues warranting your vehicle.

 

[Must_Tang]

Actually, it is...

"We reached out to Ford Motor Company [NYSE:F] and Dodge to ask about the warranty coverage for the Mustang and Challenger. From Ford we learned that all Mustangs are covered for "test-and-tune" days but not competition. That's the same as the Camaro, but even base Mustangs are covered. Dodge said taking a Challenger to a track day doesn't void the warranty, but any damage incurred will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis."

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...amaros-warranty-if-you-take-it-to-a-racetrack

I can't find the other article, but there is one out there where it was explicitly stated that timed events would not be warrantied (for the camaro). That's not to confuse test and tune timed events to actual "racing" timed events.



I don't think you understand, test and tune and HDPE does not void your warranty, only racing for trophy or money does. And even then, the warranty isn't voided, the manufacturer simply wouldn't warranty the issue if one were to occur on the tack (if they knew it was a timed event).

As for your oil cooler issue, you chose not to press the issue...but it would have been impossible for the dealership to prove the oil cooler caused any damage and thus they would have been required to warranty your vehicle. The burden of proof is on them, not you. Had you simply taken your car to a different dealership who didn't have their head up their ass, they would have had no issues warranting your vehicle.

Yup, I believe you are correct. If I pressed it, I most likely would have got it covered. I'd bet it would have taken quite a awhile though and lots of pain and gyrations. And, at the end, there could be the possibility that I would have to pay out of pocket due to the oil cooler and track use. So I got rid of it.

The oil cooler thing could be a tough argument. You're essentially modifying the oiling system and putting a sandwich plate and cooler inline. Really, how can you prove it that it wasn't the cause??? Oil pressure test - yes - but at all RPMs? When hot? ugh.

My oil cooler was a Mishimoto, for which I have a lot of confidence in. According to their engineering blog, they really tested the heck out of it, and even posted the pressure drop, which was minimal. Plus they sell a lot of them.

 

[Nagare]

I don't think you understand, test and tune and HDPE does not void your warranty, only racing for trophy or money does. And even then, the warranty isn't voided, the manufacturer simply wouldn't warranty the issue if one were to occur on the tack (if they knew it was a timed event).

It says it a bit more open ended than that. If it occurs on the track or could be traced back to it. Pretty sure you being hard on the brakes, transmission, suspension, etc while at the track increases the wear on it and they could explain that as why it later failed. I had a stress fracture pop up (at least the pain) in my heel once a few days after the actual activity that caused it, same idea.

If you're talking months later then obviously it would be hard to say it was the event that caused it.

 

[Fatguy]

Yup, I believe you are correct. If I pressed it, I most likely would have got it covered. I'd bet it would have taken quite a awhile though and lots of pain and gyrations. And, at the end, there could be the possibility that I would have to pay out of pocket due to the oil cooler and track use. So I got rid of it.

The oil cooler thing could be a tough argument. You're essentially modifying the oiling system and putting a sandwich plate and cooler inline. Really, how can you prove it that it wasn't the cause??? Oil pressure test - yes - but at all RPMs? When hot? ugh.

My oil cooler was a Mishimoto, for which I have a lot of confidence in. According to their engineering blog, they really tested the heck out of it, and even posted the pressure drop, which was minimal. Plus they sell a lot of them.

So, just how dedicated are you to the track? If let’s say Ford (snicker...snicker) does not provide sufficient cooling for Mustangs supposedly track worthy and they go to limp mode on the track - what do you do? Knobble limp mode or add the oil coolers? Or just regularly go to limp mode or call track use quits? If you are competitive you add the coolers and be damned if the warantee is void. All about priorities though GM seems to set up their “track” cars better than Ford (“did” to be fair). But if something happens and they honor the warantee, then you scored sort of... ;)

 

[Must_Tang]

So, just how dedicated are you to the track? If let’s say Ford (snicker...snicker) does not provide sufficient cooling for Mustangs supposedly track worthy and they go to limp mode on the track - what do you do? Knobble limp mode or add the oil coolers? Or just regularly go to limp mode or call track use quits? If you are competitive you add the coolers and be damned if the warantee is void. All about priorities though GM seems to set up their “track” cars better than Ford (“did” to be fair). But if something happens and they honor the warantee, then you scored sort of... ;)

I'll run 8-10 track days a season. I'm in the northeast, so that is mid-April to late October.

Super dedicated? Not really, but while I'm there I want to make it through the weekend without going into limp mode, or damaging the vehicle. With my previous car, it would go into limp mode usually at the end of the second 20 minute session on a warm day, at the end of the third session when it is cool - ambient below 50-55.

The fourth session of the day, it would last about 3/4 of the way through. Once the A/T is heat soaked, it stayed hot.

So, it wasn't the end of the world, but yeah, it kinda sucked.

As far as being competitive, sure, I think most people who go to HPDEs or TTs are. I just want to finish the weekend without damaging the car, or losing power. Towards the end of the sessions is when you get your rhythm going and it stinks to have to slow down.


Lol- if I wanted to REALLY compete, I'd be driving a Miata!!!

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